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Thread: help with milk texturing...

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    help with milk texturing...

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hello fellow coffeesnobs,

    Ive been working on my frothing technique and the largest problem I am currently facing is the consistency of the microfoam throughout the milk.* It seems as though most of the microfoam is at the top of the milk jug when done? which means its very late in the pour when I can attempt any sort of Latte art.* Here is a pic and vid; tips would be most appreciated.


    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBrRGsa6-K4[/media]

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    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    To much air makes the milk stiffer
    By the looks of it you are at the in between stage of late art foam and cappuccino

    KK

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    thanks KK, can I assume that the fix is to stretch for a shorter period of time? and just rotate the milk in the jug?

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    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 6B6E61686E503F3C0F0 link=1323487709/2#2 date=1323496326
    thanks KK, can I assume that the fix is to stretch for a shorter period of time? and just rotate the milk in the jug?
    You can also try this method
    But if you have a single hole its wise to add just a little more air

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1220959662

    Read the method on post one [1]
    See a video on post [30]

    KK

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Hi, Im also new at making coffee. I find that the whirlpool really helps, because it folds the bigger bubbles toward the wand and gets rid of them, and at the same time you can be sure your foam is being distributed evenly throughout your milk.

    I got a stick on thermometer, I stop microfoaming (near the surface) after the 50C mark and heat until 65C, maintaining the whirlpool at all times.. It works well and stretches about the 20% required.

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    progress...



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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    KK, Ive had so much trouble getting textured milk that is usable for latte art. Im going to try your method in a few minutes on my Giotto Rocket Evolutione. I went down to your post #30 on "help with milk texturing" but could not view it because it is blocked in Germany because of the music you put on the video. Really wish folks would just leave off the music because it makes your video get blocked in Germany/Europe! :-[

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E524158435A525D5C5E525D330 link=1323487709/6#6 date=1326015257
    KK, Ive had so much trouble getting textured milk that is usable for latte art.* Im going to try your method in a few minutes on my Giotto Rocket Evolutione.* I went down to your post #30 on "help with milk texturing" but could not view it because it is blocked in Germany because of the music you put on the video.* Really wish folks would just leave off the music because it makes your video get blocked in Germany/Europe! :-[
    Mark
    You will find the method very simple
    Let the steam from your machine do the work

    As to the video you can try to download it on your computer to view

    It was made by another CS member Oton
    He is based in the EU / Spain I believe

    KK

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    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Hi Mark,

    I followed KKs method and heres my video without music :) skip to 2:45. I think the trick is to have the tip about 1mm up to 2mm (depending on the amount of milk) above the milk itself in the center and turning the steam full blast.

    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGvo3Qp_QdQ&context=C32203b9ADOEgsToPDskKD U6wpDEukGRd00XQh4nGC[/media]

    Hope this helps. It has helped me alot!

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    hey, thanks for your response with the video. i had stumbled upon your video on youtube and went to KKs description of how to texture the milk. I cant really get the steam wand at a 90 degree angle to the milk because it is so long and has to be angled out from the machine. it seems the key will be to let less air into the milk at the start. i wish i could just set my pitcher on the machine like you do during your steaming...if i did that the steam wand would be almost at the bottom of the pitcher.
    mark :)

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 232F3C253E272F2021232F204E0 link=1323487709/9#9 date=1326024250
    I cant really get the steam wand at a 90 degree angle to the milk because it is so long and has to be angled out from the machine
    I guess the other option is to do what Oton does and set the pitcher on a makeshift stand on the side of the machine slightly lower. Anything to get the angle and height right...a stack of coasters? a box like Oton did etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by 232F3C253E272F2021232F204E0 link=1323487709/9#9 date=1326024250
    it seems the key will be to let less air into the milk at the start.
    I think it is the opposite. the key is to get most of the air at the start which is why the tip is 1 or 2mm above the milk to push the air into the milk.


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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F233029322B232C2D2F232C420 link=1323487709/9#9 date=1326024250
    hey, thanks for your response with the video.* i had stumbled upon your video on youtube and went to KKs description of how to texture the milk.* I cant really get the steam wand at a 90 degree angle to the milk because it is so long and has to be angled out from the machine.* it seems the key will be to let less air into the milk at the start.* i wish i could just set my pitcher on the machine like you do during your steaming...if i did that the steam wand would be almost at the bottom of the pitcher.
    mark :)
    An angle is not much of an issue
    As long as the wand is in the centre and there is sufficient milk

    KK


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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Thanks KK, I really appreciate your effort to help me. I just tried the method again before viewing your last post. Im sure that sketch will help a lot. Last time I tried I put the pitcher on the drainage try like Oton does and poured the milk in trying to stop with the milk 1mm distant to the steam wand. I guess my distance was greater because it sucked in a lot of air! Next time I try I will hold the pitcher in my hand like your sketch. I usually have a thermometer in the pitcher as well and bring the temp up to 165 F. Is that about right? :)
    Thanks again!
    Mark

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 03272E2E2D2D1703273B2527480 link=1323487709/11#11 date=1326024780
    An angle is not much of an issue
    As long as the wand is in the centre and there is sufficient milk
    I guess thats true. Actually in my video it really wasnt strictly 90 degrees, but definitely in the middle of the pitcher. It still provided enough incorporation of the air into the milk to come out with a decent textured milk. Not having to hold the milk I find helps with consistency too.

    Mark,

    In my video it was only milk for one, but I do the same method for 2 and even with a greater angle and still with the pitcher sitting on the Giotto tray. Ofcourse if you can get that 90 degrees air incorporating would be much more even. What sized pitcher are you using? 600ml or 1000ml? How did your first try go?

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Seems to me the tip of the steam wand should be slightly BELOW the milk rather than 1mm to 2mm above the milk. Having the wand tip slightly below the milk level would also suck in air and give the ch, ch, ch sound...or not?

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Did you watch Otons video? I guess with the music you cant as per your post, it has a much better top view of the texturing. the tip is definitely above the milk surface not below, have you tried it? 1mm is not much of a gap, it is essentially almost touching the milk. the tip it will almost instantaneously be enveloped by the milk when you turn the steam tap full on. My machine is the Giotto too and it works as per my video. Try it.

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Ive watched your video several times...unfortunately, I cant view Otons video because of the Music permission blockage in Germany. Im going to try again per KKs sketch above. Seems the key is to let in the air (NOT too much) at the beginning of the process and have the tip below the surface after the air is in....naturally through the stretching process. Im going to try your method again, but pour the milk into the pitcher after it is in place with the steam wand already down in the pitcher.....

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5C50435A4158505F5E5C505F310 link=1323487709/16#16 date=1326030447
    Ive watched your video several times...unfortunately, I cant view Otons video because of the Music permission blockage in Germany.* Im going to try again per KKs sketch above.* Seems the key is to let in the air (NOT too much) at the beginning of the process and have the tip below the surface after the air is in....naturally through the stretching process.* Im going to try your method again, but pour the milk into the pitcher after it is in place with the steam wand already down in the pitcher.....
    You are welcome to read through the original thread I started
    Also you may pick up something from the posts that may help in your endeavour

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1220959662

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    I wonder if my machine (Giotto Rocket Evoluzione) is hot enough at a brewhead temp of 88 C to produce a dry enough steam for texturing....? On my machine the water coming directly from the brewhead is 88C.

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 232F3C253E272F2021232F204E0 link=1323487709/18#18 date=1326040518
    I wonder if my machine (Giotto Rocket Evoluzione) is hot enough at a brewhead temp of 88 C to produce a dry enough steam for texturing....?* On my machine the water coming directly from the brewhead is 88C.

    Rather than look at the brewhead, why dont you look at the steam wand? ;D

    Whats the steam like? Can you hold your hand in front of it without getting dripping wet? not too close though, youll burn yourself ;)

    88 does seem a little cold though, how long did you warm it up for before you took that measurement?

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    88 Celsius is the hottest Ive measured even after the machine has been on a couple hours...I think it needs to be turned up to 92C at least. What would you say?

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Mark,

    You still have not described what exactly is wrong with your milk texturing. What are the results you are getting? no microfoam? Too much foam? No foam at all?

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    A vid just filmed before dinner. May be of some help.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fGUppjxx94&feature=youtube_gdata

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 212A302B312E2C25420 link=1323487709/22#22 date=1326192092
    A vid just filmed before dinner. May be of some help.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fGUppjxx94&feature=youtube_gdata
    Great video
    That looked easy enough to me ITC

    Mark can I ask
    Is this your first machine ? and if not what machine did you upgrade from ?

    KK

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Hi KK, Thanks for forwarding the video although he wasnt much more successful than Ive been with my latte art. The Giotto Rocket Evoluzione is my second machine. I had the Rancillio Sylvia and Rocky before I bought the Giotto and Mazzer Rocket.

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 303C2F362D343C3332303C335D0 link=1323487709/24#24 date=1326215055
    Hi KK, Thanks for forwarding the video although he wasnt much more successful than Ive been with my latte art.* The Giotto Rocket Evoluzione is my second machine.* I had the Rancillio Sylvia and Rocky before I bought* the Giotto and Mazzer Rocket.* *
    There is a huge difference of available steam between the 2 machines

    The time to get microfoam* is greatly reduced in the Gioto due to its greater steam capacity
    The ball park time in the Gioto would be approx 10 to 14 seconds

    Another factor may be - that you just need to learn to drive the new machine
    Not unlike changing cars & finding one drives different to the last

    So use the tried and tested method and watch your times

    KK



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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A56455C475E5659585A5659370 link=1323487709/24#24 date=1326215055
    he wasnt much more successful than Ive been with my latte art.
    Latte art is as much technique in pouring as texturing of the milk. I have seen some people do a half decent latte art out of over-textured milk by playing with the height of the pour.

    I am assuming on the Silvia you were able to do a decent latte art? As KK says the difference in steam power is vast. It takes time and practice.

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    When I pour the "latte art," by the time I get down to the bottom of the pitcher, the milk is just milk and doesnt have enough micro-foam to draw anything.
    As far as the 10-14 seconds KK has recommended for milk texturing on the Giotto -- I think I usually need more like 20-25 seconds to get the temp up to 165F -- I use a thermometer. Is that 165F (74C) too hot?

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A56455C475E5659585A5659370 link=1323487709/27#27 date=1326292091
    When I pour the "latte art," by the time I get down to the bottom of the pitcher, the milk is just milk and doesnt have enough micro-foam to draw anything.
    As far as the 10-14 seconds KK has recommended for milk texturing on the Giotto -- I think I usually need more like 20-25 seconds to get the temp up to 165F -- I use a thermometer.* Is that 165F (74C) too hot?
    Mark I feel 75 deg is to hot try for 60/65 deg C

    If you still have milk at the bottom -

    1] If the milk is thick it is normal - try swirling the milk to incorporate the thick foam top layer with the thinner bottom (you can also add a tiny bit more air)

    2] If the milk is thin - add more air to the process
    Introducing more air, increases the milk thickness (but not to much as it may go to thick)

    Its basically a correct mix of air to liquid ratio that works on your particular machine

    Note that milk is a natural product that may change with the seasons so you need to adjust accordingly
    In saying that my preferred milk has a min 8gr of protein per 250ml serving (look on the label)

    KK




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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Thanks KK, Ill try 60-65C for the milk. The milk I use has 8g of protein for 240ml at 2% fat. I dont see how I can swirl the milk any more than I am. Seems the crucial element is how much air is being introduced to the milk at the beginning.
    Thanks again for your help!

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Hi Mark,

    Definitely for latte art it is important not to overheat the milk as it will effect the microfoam. I use the touch method but did go out and buy a thermometer to see what I am heating the milk to. I find that I usually stop heating the milk when the temperature reaches about 60 degrees and you will find that the temperature will keep rising if you leave the thermometer in the jug even after youve stopped heating due to lag.

    Let us know how you go. :)

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    I may try lowering the temp of milk aswell. As the milk I am doing at the moment is nice n hot! which tends to make it rather stiff for latte art. So that when you lower the jug to increase pour and start your art it just swanps the top with foam rather than allow it to be laid in a pattern.


    That said the KK method has been fool proof for me as far as microfoam. Very glossy,silky milk comes from it with very little input.

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    I think I bust out the thermometer to understand the colour change in my temp tag so that I roughly know where 60 is as well.

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Ok so did the following. Noticed definate improvement in the workaility of the milk and latte seemed sweeter. So two thumbs up.

    1. boiled kettle poured water in the mug; to heat mug so that that the mug wasnt leeching heat.
    2. boiled the kettle again and poured out old water followed by the just boiled water with the thermomeer in. Determined reading of 95 so a -5 variance.
    3. Determined thermometer lags behind about 5 so desired temp 65 - 5 variance less 5 lag. Target temp 55 to stop steam, which rises to 60 = 65.


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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    KK had suggested that I steam the milk 10-14 seconds. I steam mine 20-25 seconds because (I had forgotten to mention) I place the pitcher in the freezer so it is good and cold before I steam the milk -- so that I have more time to texture.
    Im stopping earlier now with the temp around 65C rather than 74C. So often I can get somewhat of a rosetta...but it is usually very thin and sickly! :-/
    Sometimes I think I could control the amount of air being let into the milk by having just a one-hole tip rather than the 2-hole tip I have.

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 767A69706B727A7574767A751B0 link=1323487709/34#34 date=1326369256
    KK had suggested that I steam the milk 10-14 seconds.* I steam mine 20-25 seconds because (I had forgotten to mention) I place the pitcher in the freezer so it is good and cold before I steam the milk -- so that I have more time to texture.
    No need to do the freezer thing with a HX
    Milk straight out of the fridge into a pitcher at room temp is just fine

    Quote Originally Posted by 767A69706B727A7574767A751B0 link=1323487709/34#34 date=1326369256
    Im stopping earlier now with the temp around 65C rather than 74C.*
    Good

    Quote Originally Posted by 767A69706B727A7574767A751B0 link=1323487709/34#34 date=1326369256
    So often I can get somewhat of a rosetta...but it is usually very thin and sickly!*
    Sometimes I think I could control the amount of air being let into the milk by having just a one-hole tip rather than the 2-hole tip I have
    The opposite is the case with the extra steam
    Get out of the last machine habit

    KK

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4F445E455F40424B2C0 link=1323487709/33#33 date=1326358405
    Noticed definate improvement in the workaility of the milk and latte seemed sweeter. So two thumbs up.
    Yep, looking forward to some latte art examples. For latte art definitely better to under heat than overheat as theres no chance for art once its overheated. In a thin milk situation bring the pitcher right up to the shot as close as you can even touching the shot with the tip fo the pitcher, in too thick foam situation pull the pitcher up higher to penetrate the crema. Its a balancing act really.
    I find latte for two I need to pour from a 1L or 600ml to a 300ml, pour the first latte art then pour the 300ml back into the bigger pitcher and pour the second. I can get latte art consistently now but its control of the jiggle to get a symmetrical pattern that Ive been concentrating on.

    Quote Originally Posted by 414D5E475C454D4243414D422C0 link=1323487709/34#34 date=1326369256
    I place the pitcher in the freezer so it is good and cold before I steam the milk -- so that I have more time to texture.
    Cold milk from the fridge is fine. pitcher in the fridge is fine too. pitcher in the freezer seems like an overkill. dont overstretch your milk.

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Also try and get all of your stretching done before 40 degrees as well. If you are still stretching after that you are only destroying the good texture you already had :)

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Hi all been practising my KK method and I think I have it under control.

    Things that have changed in my technique which applies to the Espro jugs.

    The Espro jug is fantastic IMO but is designed in particular way and therefore must be used in a particular way.

    1. Put wand above milk 1mm, open steam to break surface and then open up the steam full
    2. touch side of jug and as you feel the jug becomes warm move it to the outside of the Espro to generate whirlpool.
    3. Steam to 60.
    4. Split into another jug so milk below spout of the Espro
    5. Hold jug with a full hand by the handle e.g. put all of your fingers through the handle. As this raises up the back of the jug as you pour morseso than other jugs I have used.
    6. Fill latte with milk below surface by pour from a high/slowly & consistently with the glass in your other hand tilting it towards the jug until about 1/2 the glass is full then begin the pattern by leaning the jug more forward to increase pour and slightly lower it closer to the surface and straighten the glass with the other hand as you go.

    This is mornings pours. I have since managed another two cups and my Fiance commented they where the best she has tasted yet. Very, very fine microfoam!


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    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Heres one I did today at lunch. I think Im getting used to texturing for 2. Used to be the other way around. But I guess its when you entertain that its more important for presentation.

    Happy with this rosetta!




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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Nice detail.

    I need to try with my ACFs with the duralex there narrower so less room to lay out a pattern.

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Little video I finished wipping up.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRx3Qds7BEw&feature=youtube_gdata

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHzJ_9lKQtw

    First vid with music.* Its one I did at the start of the year just added the music...relaxing and reminds me of how it feels each morning making my latte* :)

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    When i get time, ill do up a video of my technique but here is what i do on my EM6910:
    1) Purge the steam wand
    2) Fill jug with amount of milk needed (never above the beginning of the spout)
    3) place tip 0.5cm under the surface
    4) turn knob to full
    5) Stretch the milk until the jug starts to get hot
    6) place knob just under the milk at an angle that will make a whirlpool effect in the milk - No more stretching
    7) Heat and swirl until hot

    This technique works for me just using the el cheepo steaming jug off coffee parts and seems to work flawlessly on my Sunbeam at home and the La Marzocco fb80 and Linea at work.
    Happy Steaming!

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    hi all,

    i have an expobar monroc with a 4 tip BEAST of a steam wand that puts out way too much steam. on other machines i can texture milk perfectly but i am absolutely hopeless with this one..

    is there anything that can save me?

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    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 405A4E4C4149485F1D182D0 link=1323487709/43#43 date=1334909234
    When i get time, ill do up a video of my technique but here is what i do on my EM6910:
    1) Purge the steam wand
    2) Fill jug with amount of milk needed (never above the beginning of the spout)
    3) place tip 0.5cm under the surface
    4) turn knob to full
    5) Stretch the milk until the jug starts to get hot
    6) place knob just under the milk at an angle that will make a whirlpool effect in the milk - No more stretching
    7) Heat and swirl until hot

    This technique works for me just using the el cheepo steaming jug off coffee parts and seems to work flawlessly on my Sunbeam at home and the La Marzocco fb80 and Linea at work.
    Happy Steaming!
    Thank you for your post>
    I am having trouble with creating microfoamed milk
    with my recently acquired EM6910 in which I have just replaced the steam boiler.

    I am having trouble getting my technique right, or else it is the machine!!

    I have been making great silky milk in my EM4800C for 4 years. I am a bit puzzled. Maybe the EM6910 needs a new steam tip as it appears the steam is too fierce and it does not give me time to get the microfoam right.

    In the past on my other machine my goal has been silky milk all the way through with no foam. I probably achieved that about 65-75% of the time.

    Thank you for your above post.

    Robin

  47. #47
    Senior Member mwcalder05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Sunshine Coast
    Posts
    437

    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 2A392F313434580 link=1323487709/45#45 date=1339189361
    Thank you for your post>
    I am having trouble with creating microfoamed milk
    with my recently acquired EM6910 in which I have just replaced the steam boiler.

    I am having trouble getting my technique right, or else it is the machine!!

    I have been making great silky milk in my EM4800C for 4 years. I am a bit puzzled. Maybe the EM6910 needs a new steam tip as it appears the steam is too fierce and it does not give me time to get the microfoam right.

    In the past on my other machine my goal has been silky milk all the way through with no foam. I probably achieved that about 65-75% of the time.

    Thank you for your above post.

    Robin
    No problem. The one golden rule is practise. And if you dont want to waste milk, just place cold water in your jug, put a tiny dollop of washing up liquid in it a practise steaming with that! Little to no wastage and a bucket load of practise heading your way

  48. #48
    Rbn
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Southland NZ
    Posts
    443

    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Thanks for that, I will try that.

    I am grumpy, especially since I had my technique near to right with my less expensive machine.

  49. #49
    Rbn
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Southland NZ
    Posts
    443

    Re: help with milk texturing...

    Following the Golden Rule of Practice, practice, practcie and no luck so far. Went back to my old machine this morning, perfect, I could make nice latte art. I think I am going to make the steam spout hole smaller, takes longer I know, but there you go.

  50. #50
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    74

    Re: help with milk texturing...

    This mightve been linked to already, but anyway here it is again. I found this whole article pretty useful. http://coffeegeek.com/guides/frothingguide/steamguide

    Make sure you read the sections on the milk itself too :) Gives you some insight about whats really happening to the milk when you steam it...



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