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Thread: Is Soy milk bad for you?

  1. #1
    Senior Member C-man's Avatar
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    Is Soy milk bad for you?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Interesting article on Homogenised v Un-homogenised milk.

    NZ Society of Naturopaths - Homogenised Milk - Can it cause damage to your health
    that doesn't surprise me!

    And what is wrong with Soy Milk? EVERYTHING! unless you are a women

    All soy milk is full of estergin, mans worst enemy although we have small levels.

    It will give you enlarged breasts, love handles and cause excess DHT to build up in the bloodstream and collect in the scalp and prostate

    need I say more.....
    Last edited by Javaphile; 21st March 2013 at 08:13 PM. Reason: language cleanup

  2. #2
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-man View Post
    that doesn't surprise me!



    All soy milk is full of estergin, mans worst enemy although we have small levels.

    cause excess DHT to build up in the bloodstream
    I think the word you were looking for is oestrogen, not surprised you cant spell dihydrotestosterone (DHL)

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-man View Post
    that doesn't surprise me!

    And what is wrong with Soy Milk? EVERYTHING! unless you are a women
    All soy milk is full of estergin, mans worst enemy although we have small levels.
    It will give you enlarged breasts, love handles and cause excess DHT to build up in the bloodstream and collect in the scalp and prostate
    need I say more.....
    Disagree. Non-evidence based and unjustified in any way!!
    Asia continues to dominate soy milk consumption

    Soymillk consumptions dominates in Asia. If the above statement were true, then I fail to see more of the features you have mentioned in any typical Asian body profile. As for prostate?, find me a link which shows higher risk of prostate issues in Asia as compared to any other non soy drinking countries.

    Perhaps there are majors differences in which a Cauasian metabolises soymilk. Take Coeliac disease for example; it is predominant in Australia and rare in Asia. Ask any Asian to go on a Coeliac gluten free diet, and it would like his daily meal of rice (hardly any change needed).
    But most people in Asia have a lactose intolerance as compared to a Caucasian...

  4. #4
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miltah View Post
    Disagree. Non-evidence based and unjustified in any way!!
    Asia continues to dominate soy milk consumption
    The above is a very untrue statement! The fact is that many hundreds of peer reviewed studies have been undertaken on this very subject over the past few decades. Clinical evidence has clearly demonstrated that there are both pros and cons associated with soy milk/soy formula/non-fermented soy product consumption. In America the USDA classifies non-fermented soy products as a 2 on a danger scale from 1 to 5 (primarily due to phytoestrogen levels and their association with endocrine disruption at a cellular level) for the degree of risk associated with it. Like alcohol or caffeine, these products should be consumed in moderation... if at all.

    As for the Asian vs Caucasian differences in tolerance, the general belief is that Asian populations have been consuming soy for a long time, with no obvious consequences. This argument fails to recognize, however, that intake levels between Asians consuming a traditional soy-rich diet and Caucasians eating a typical “Western” diet differ dramatically over the lifespan. This temporal divergence may explain why there appear to be differences in both the pros and cons of phytoestrogen exposure between the two populations. In Asian populations, soy consumption is high across the entire lifespan, except for a brief 6–8 month neonatal breastfeeding window. In Westerners feeding their babies soy infant formula the pattern is just the opposite, and the highest consumption levels occur in the first year of life then drop to near zero with the possibility that consumption levels increase later in life with soy milk beverages or supplements. In Asia, soy is consumed mostly in the form of tofu, tempeh, and other unprocessed foods, not as dietary supplements or products enriched with soy protein isolate. Asian populations also eat considerably higher levels of seafood and low levels of animal fat than Western populations. These variables make the two populations quite distinct in terms of lifestyle, dietary habits, and lifetime phytoestrogen exposure. Thus, phytoestrogen effects may differ between the two groups, a possibility that should be taken into account when interpreting epidemiological data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    In Asian populations, soy consumption is high across the entire lifespan, except for a brief 6–8 month neonatal breastfeeding window. In Westerners feeding their babies soy infant formula the pattern is just the opposite, and the highest consumption levels occur in the first year of life then drop to near zero with the possibility that consumption levels increase later in life with soy milk beverages or supplements.
    Disagree. In the Australian Infant Feeding Guidelines, babies are exclusivly breastfed until 6 months whereby foods are introduced. Soy milk infant formula is never suggested or given unless the baby has a known allergy to cows milk. And that percentage is pretty low.

    My initial rebutal was towards the notion that soy milk is bad. You are now implying that perhaps the type of soy consumed in a traditional Asian Diet is different to that of a Western Diet. So are you now implying soy is ok if a Westerner consumes it as soymilk, tempeh tofu?

    Agree that variable are in play.
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  6. #6
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miltah View Post
    My initial rebutal was towards the notion that soy milk is bad. You are now implying that perhaps the type of soy consumed in a traditional Asian Diet is different to that of a Western Diet.
    The bad things associated with soy are almost exclusively found in non-fermented soy products. Most of the soy products found in the west are of this type. In Asia fermented soy products account for a much higher percentage of soy products consumed.


    Java "Yes, Asian diets do differ from those in the West" phile
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  7. #7
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miltah View Post
    So are you now implying soy is ok if a Westerner consumes it as soymilk, tempeh tofu?
    No... I never implied that whatsoever. Soymilk is a non-fermented soy product and is therefore harmful to some degree.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    This from today's Australian.


    Soy milk is a good dairy alternative for those that have a diagnosed allergy or intolerance to dairy milk. However don't assume it is healthier. I would always opt for dairy milk over soy in the absence of allergies or intolerances. Soy is a common allergen and can cause just as many problems for kids as dairy in those who are susceptible. On the plus side soy is one of the few plants to provide the full array of essential amino acids we need, therefore soy is an excellent source of plant protein. The jury is still out on whether the phytoestrogens found in soy are beneficial or detrimental. I suggest using soy in the way traditional Asian diets do and not as the refined ‘soy protein isolate’ used in many Western foods. If you do choose soy milk for your kids, choose one made from whole beans, has nothing nasty added and is fortified with calcium.

    Here's a link to the complete article The right milk for your child


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    Your first mistake was taking any notice of pseudoscience (naturpaths) other than to mock their ignorance.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member mwcalder05's Avatar
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    Now with Soy in coffee, according to one of my co-workers, It inhibits the body from taking in all of the goodness and nutrients in espresso. Dunno whether this is true or not but could be a worthwhile discussion.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Mariner's Avatar
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    Is Soy milk bad for you?

    Everything is a poison in the right amount........except espresso of course!
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  12. #12
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    Is Soy milk bad for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    This from today's Australian.
    That doesn't help the credibility of anything in your post, Yelta! ;-)

    Seriously though, can I take from that there are some soy milk brands that are better than others? If so, which brands?

  13. #13
    Senior Member C-man's Avatar
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    the simple fact that soy milk has phytoestrogen levels says enough for me.

    give it to the girls..

  14. #14
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-man View Post
    the simple fact that soy milk has phytoestrogen levels says enough for me.

    give it to the girls..
    So do nut's, oil seeds, cereals, bread, meat, legumes, vegetables, fruit, alcohol and non alcoholic beverages.
    Learn more about the topic here. Phytoestrogens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Smile soy beans and ya nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    So do nut's, oil seeds, cereals, bread, meat, legumes, vegetables, fruit, alcohol and non alcoholic beverages.
    Learn more about the topic here. Phytoestrogens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    OK...so being a scientist, this thread got me interested......as usual, people tend to grab things that align with their point of view and sell them as fact....

    A recent review of the literature of the reproductive health effects of phytoestogens from soy shows that evidence either way is sketchy:
    The paper is titled Soy, phytoestrogens and their impact on reproductive health and was published in Molecular and Cellular Endicrinology last year.

    Several studies have shown effects on female fertility
    "Although available data are highly heterogeneous, a recent meta-analysis of 47 studies concluded that consumption of soy and isoflavones in premenopausal women reduces circulating LH and FSH, and increases menstrual cycle length (Hooper et al., 2009). In contrast no statistical effects were observed on hormonal status in postmenopausal women. Because soy food is increasingly part of the female diet, the clinical relevance of these modest hormonal changes must be examined in further robust studies."


    Basically, there are only three studies in the primary literature looking directly at effects on male fertility, and their outcomes are completely contradictory - 1 detects bad effects from phytoestrogens, one detects good effects, and the other finds no effects. The paper also reflects that there is heaps of evidence of negative effects from animal testing, but that the results are hugely variable between different animals, so extrapolating to humans from any of these studies is dodgy science.

    "As is the case for women, there is a surprising paucity of studies evaluating the effects of soy and phytoestrogens on fertility and reproductive parameters in men. To our knowledge, only three studies have investigated the impact of soy food or isoflavone intake on semen quality with contradictory results...............Studies focusing on hormonal levels also found no clear effects (or borderline significance) when consuming tofu (70 mg/day isoflavones), soymilk (48 mg/day isoflavones), or soy products (22 mg/day isoflavones; Habito et al., 2000, Nagata et al., 2000 and Nagata et al., 2001). A recent meta-analysis, which included studies that evaluated testosterone levels as a bio-indicator of risks for prostate cancer, suggested out of 32 reports that soy foods or isoflavone intake do not alter free testosterone levels (Hamilton-Reeves et al., 2010)."

    "Overall, there is an apparent lack of notable effects, suggesting that regular adult soy-product or isoflavone intake in men causes little detrimental effect on reproduction and fertility. However, this near absence of documented impact emphasizes once again the need for long term, large scale comprehensive human studies."

    My take: I wouldn't be too worried, but perhaps if you are a guy trying to squeeze out competent swimmers (I am well past that stage - all roads to freedom for the little guys are blocked), you might want to ease off the soy as one of many measures (boxers, rather than jocks...etc) to maximise all possibilities of sustainingyour genetic line (OK..I said I was a scientist )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davo View Post
    "However, this near absence of documented impact emphasizes once again the need for long term, large scale comprehensive human studies."
    (OK..I said I was a scientist )
    Yup, you sure as heck displayed that here.
    My view, FWIW: I believe that I don't have a "long term" window to experiment/test ANYYHING suspect to my health benefits.
    If 'science' presents no proof of its harmlessness, (aside from the insinuation that since people aren’t dropping dead, how bad could it be?) personally, I'd much prefer to avoid products of doubt/risk to my well-being. Remember, there’s a big difference between acutely lethal toxicity and insidious, disease-producing toxicity that accumulates over time.
    Just because it doesn’t have an instant effect on you, does NOT mean it’s harmless!
    And I'm just a coffee lover, not intending to sell my point of view as fact, it's just my take on these things.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    "Soy milk's bad for you"

    So reads the opening comment of this article in the SMH Why soy confused?

    Guess I'm lucky I'm OK with ordinary old Moo, and don't have to mess with weird substitutes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    So reads the opening comment of this article in the SMH Why soy confused?

    Guess I'm lucky I'm OK with ordinary old Moo, and don't have to mess with weird substitutes.
    Wha????.....did you actually read past the first sentence?

    'Soy milk's bad for you" quipped a friend as I ordered a soy latte.

    Hardly an authoritative statement that soy is bad, as you seem to be making out!!

    You make it sound like the article says that soy is bad.....it doesn't......in fact it says pretty much what my tirade of scientific jargon above says. There is no real evidence that drinking soy milk creates any problems

    Having said that, I typically drink lactose free milk rather than soy....but do enjoy the occasional Bonsoy coffee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevo View Post
    Yup, you sure as heck displayed that here.
    My view, FWIW: I believe that I don't have a "long term" window to experiment/test ANYYHING suspect to my health benefits.
    If 'science' presents no proof of its harmlessness, (aside from the insinuation that since people aren’t dropping dead, how bad could it be?) personally, I'd much prefer to avoid products of doubt/risk to my well-being. Remember, there’s a big difference between acutely lethal toxicity and insidious, disease-producing toxicity that accumulates over time.
    Just because it doesn’t have an instant effect on you, does NOT mean it’s harmless!
    And I'm just a coffee lover, not intending to sell my point of view as fact, it's just my take on these things.
    I take it you don't use a mobile phone?

  20. #20
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davo View Post
    Wha????.....did you actually read past the first sentence?

    'Soy milk's bad for you" quipped a friend as I ordered a soy latte.

    Hardly an authoritative statement that soy is bad, as you seem to be making out!!

    You make it sound like the article says that soy is bad.....it doesn't......in fact it says pretty much what my tirade of scientific jargon above says. There is no real evidence that drinking soy milk creates any problems
    I'm at a loss to see which bit of Yelta's post 'make(s) it sound like the article says that soy is bad' etc. The context is pretty clear.


    I'm not 100% sure that drinking either cow's milk or soy is a great bonus to our health, and I don't think the 'Bitty!' approach is socially acceptable outside comedy TV.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davo View Post
    Wha????.....did you actually read past the first sentence?

    'Soy milk's bad for you" quipped a friend as I ordered a soy latte.

    Hardly an authoritative statement that soy is bad, as you seem to be making out!!

    You make it sound like the article says that soy is bad.....it doesn't......in fact it says pretty much what my tirade of scientific jargon above says. There is no real evidence that drinking soy milk creates any problems

    Having said that, I typically drink lactose free milk rather than soy....but do enjoy the occasional Bonsoy coffee
    Calm down Davo, the heading is an attention getter, if you take note it's enclosed within quotes guess it worked, you read it.

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    Perhaps you should get really controversial and bring up caffeine as a drug?

    Unless you are allergic to soy it is probably not a big issue.

    Or at least at the moment the scientific evidence is unclear.

  23. #23
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    I read this bit

    According to government statistics, 50 percent of New Zealanders die from heart disease,
    and thought that sounded a bit high, so I looked at the NZ heart foundation site and they said

    Cardiovascular disease (heart, stroke and blood vessel disease) is still the leading cause of death in New Zealand, accounting for 40% of deaths annually.
    so I stopped reading the article, I'm sure the rest of it is just as accurate

  24. #24
    Senior Member C-man's Avatar
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    As males our body's try to maintain a healthy T to E ratio (testosterone to estergin) we need E but only in the right small amounts,

    I think on it's own soy milk just has a very small influence on hormone levels, and on a young healthy male none at all, but as we age our hormone levels change, testosterone drops but estergin does not, this is when the problems start. soy milk is just another drop in the bucket,
    but there are many other things that combined together all add up.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    e s t r o g e n

  26. #26
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    e s t r o g e n
    Was going to correct it to the English spelling (Oestrogen) thought better of it for fear of being labeled a pedant.

    You obviously have no such concerns.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Was going to correct it to the English spelling (Oestrogen) thought better of it for fear of being labeled a pedant.

    You obviously have no such concerns.
    Forsooth! Thou hast such encylopaedic knowledge that I bowest before thine vastly superior grasp of the English language... archaic or not.

    And... as to being somewhat pedantic... concerned?.... not even a bit

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    Quote Originally Posted by fruity View Post
    I take it you don't use a mobile phone?
    Not in the manner they are (ab)used in today's society!

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    I had a laugh - great thread! So talking about soy milk around coffee drinkers is like talking about religion when your p****sed!

    I'm too scared to ask about Almond milk or the negative studies around dairy products (i.e. pasturised and homoginised milk).......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    The bad things associated with soy are almost exclusively found in non-fermented soy products. Most of the soy products found in the west are of this type. In Asia fermented soy products account for a much higher percentage of soy products consumed.


    Java "Yes, Asian diets do differ from those in the West" phile
    Also, in Traditional Chinese Medicine (I'm an acupuncturist), soy is considered to have a very Cold thermal nature and is Damp forming which is not so good for your energy or Qi and excess consumption can lead to all kinds of dramas in the pants/reproductive department!

  31. #31
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinderella1 View Post
    Also, in Traditional Chinese Medicine (I'm an acupuncturist), soy is considered to have a very Cold thermal nature and is Damp forming which is not so good for your energy or Qi and excess consumption can lead to all kinds of dramas in the pants/reproductive department!
    A little siu lim tao will fix that right up...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    A little siu lim tao will fix that right up...
    or the addition of a little garlic or spring onion....ewww!

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    I don't drink soy milk as I'm not sure if the soya crops are genetically modified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by symphonie View Post
    I don't drink soy milk as I'm not sure if the soya crops are genetically modified.
    Nearly all the food we eat is genetically-modified: farmers have been cross-breeding for centuries. This haphazard method of splicing genes still happens today: without any regulation or verification of food safety.

    If you're referring to the specific gene-modification done in scientific labs, that DOES have strong regulation and food-safety oversight, despite being a lot safer and a lot more precise than the old farmer-splice method.

    Either way, you're already eating GMO, and boycotting the safer, more accurate methods available today is a bit ridiculous, IMHO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinderella1 View Post
    Also, in Traditional Chinese Medicine (I'm an acupuncturist), soy is considered to have a very Cold thermal nature and is Damp forming which is not so good for your energy or Qi and excess consumption can lead to all kinds of dramas in the pants/reproductive department!
    Interesting that. Certainly an accurate observation, the scientific explanation is of course well known now - excess consumption of phytoestrogens from soy should be avoided in males - for exactly this reason.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    In America the USDA classifies non-fermented soy products as a 2 on a danger scale from 1 to 5 (primarily due to phytoestrogen levels and their association with endocrine disruption at a cellular level) for the degree of risk associated with it.
    Please provide a reference for this. Google searches for the terms USDA soy danger scale return nothing relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    Like alcohol or caffeine, these products should be consumed in moderation... if at all.
    That is an incredible statement to make on a coffee enthusiast site.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fruity View Post
    If you're referring to the specific gene-modification done in scientific labs, that DOES have strong regulation and food-safety oversight, despite being a lot safer and a lot more precise than the old farmer-splice method.
    I agree with you, to a point.

    The issue (IMO) with this debate is that nobody seems to differentiate between the two overarching types of genetic engineering (the correct names temporarily escape me);
    In one form you are moving genes around within a species, i.e. from one phenotype to another, this is what the "old farmer-splicing" method does, it is also done for some (lab-engineered) GMOs, you take say the gene which makes one Soya bean plant resistant to Roundup and introduce it into another Soya bean plant, this form of engineering I have no problem with whatsoever.
    In the other form you are taking genes from a disparate, unrelated, and sexually incompatible species and introducing it into the target (a'la glow in the dark rabbits), this form of engineering is where my concern lays, there's just not enough data on long term impacts.

    Mind this all ignores my main problem with (lab-engineered) GMOs which can basically be summed up by one word "Monsanto" (more specifically "Gene patents"), I grew up in a farming community, some of the BS Monsanto pull around that sort of thing are frankly disgusting to me. Suing a farmer for IP-infringement because your client's field happened to cross-pollinate some of their crop is just plain wrong. If the Gene patent thing gets fixed (lab-engineered) GMOs will become a lot more palatable to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrewster View Post
    In the other form you are taking genes from a disparate, unrelated, and sexually incompatible species and introducing it into the target (a'la glow in the dark rabbits), this form of engineering is where my concern lays, there's just not enough data on long term impacts.
    True, there isn't a lot of long term data on these kinds of GMOs (like the fish-gened tomatoes we all eat), but there is still substantial testing and regulation of any lab-produced GMO to ensure it is fit and safe for human consumption.

    It is interesting to me that the same testing a regulation is NOT required for other gene manipulation techniques we somehow have come to trust because the guy is wearing a flannel shit instead of a lab coat.

    Your point on Monsanto is a good one though, and they're responsible for a lot of the bad press & negative hype around GMOs.

  39. #39
    Member ASchecter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    In America the USDA classifies non-fermented soy products as a 2 on a danger scale from 1 to 5 (primarily due to phytoestrogen levels and their association with endocrine disruption at a cellular level) for the degree of risk associated with it. Like alcohol or caffeine, these products should be consumed in moderation... if at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by ASchecter View Post
    Please provide a reference for this. Google searches for the terms USDA soy danger scale return nothing relevant.
    Dear Vinitasse: I'm wondering why you would make a claim about an apparently non-existent USDA classification and then, when questioned about it, refuse to answer. Can you explain what's behind your anti-soy agenda?

    In addition, if 1 is healthy and 5 is dangerous on your imaginary "USDA danger scale," then 2 must be relatively safe, no?
    Last edited by ASchecter; 21st August 2013 at 12:55 PM. Reason: clarity

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    i think cheap soy milk is bad for you!

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    Actually, on a danger scale of 1 to 5, I would be regarding 1 as being the extreme end of the scale!
    And yes, I too am anti-soy (non-fermented soy). Totally a poor "health choice" IMHO.



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