And what is wrong with Soy Milk? EVERYTHING! unless you are a women
All soy milk is full of estergin, mans worst enemy although we have small levels.
It will give you enlarged breasts, love handles and cause excess DHT to build up in the bloodstream and collect in the scalp and prostate
need I say more.....
Last edited by Javaphile; 21st March 2013 at 08:13 PM. Reason: language cleanup
Asia continues to dominate soy milk consumption
Soymillk consumptions dominates in Asia. If the above statement were true, then I fail to see more of the features you have mentioned in any typical Asian body profile. As for prostate?, find me a link which shows higher risk of prostate issues in Asia as compared to any other non soy drinking countries.
Perhaps there are majors differences in which a Cauasian metabolises soymilk. Take Coeliac disease for example; it is predominant in Australia and rare in Asia. Ask any Asian to go on a Coeliac gluten free diet, and it would like his daily meal of rice (hardly any change needed).
But most people in Asia have a lactose intolerance as compared to a Caucasian...
As for the Asian vs Caucasian differences in tolerance, the general belief is that Asian populations have been consuming soy for a long time, with no obvious consequences. This argument fails to recognize, however, that intake levels between Asians consuming a traditional soy-rich diet and Caucasians eating a typical “Western” diet differ dramatically over the lifespan. This temporal divergence may explain why there appear to be differences in both the pros and cons of phytoestrogen exposure between the two populations. In Asian populations, soy consumption is high across the entire lifespan, except for a brief 6–8 month neonatal breastfeeding window. In Westerners feeding their babies soy infant formula the pattern is just the opposite, and the highest consumption levels occur in the first year of life then drop to near zero with the possibility that consumption levels increase later in life with soy milk beverages or supplements. In Asia, soy is consumed mostly in the form of tofu, tempeh, and other unprocessed foods, not as dietary supplements or products enriched with soy protein isolate. Asian populations also eat considerably higher levels of seafood and low levels of animal fat than Western populations. These variables make the two populations quite distinct in terms of lifestyle, dietary habits, and lifetime phytoestrogen exposure. Thus, phytoestrogen effects may differ between the two groups, a possibility that should be taken into account when interpreting epidemiological data.
My initial rebutal was towards the notion that soy milk is bad. You are now implying that perhaps the type of soy consumed in a traditional Asian Diet is different to that of a Western Diet. So are you now implying soy is ok if a Westerner consumes it as soymilk, tempeh tofu?
Agree that variable are in play.
Java "Yes, Asian diets do differ from those in the West" phile
Toys! I must have new toys!!!
This from today's Australian.
Soy milk is a good dairy alternative for those that have a diagnosed allergy or intolerance to dairy milk. However don't assume it is healthier. I would always opt for dairy milk over soy in the absence of allergies or intolerances. Soy is a common allergen and can cause just as many problems for kids as dairy in those who are susceptible. On the plus side soy is one of the few plants to provide the full array of essential amino acids we need, therefore soy is an excellent source of plant protein. The jury is still out on whether the phytoestrogens found in soy are beneficial or detrimental. I suggest using soy in the way traditional Asian diets do and not as the refined ‘soy protein isolate’ used in many Western foods. If you do choose soy milk for your kids, choose one made from whole beans, has nothing nasty added and is fortified with calcium.
Here's a link to the complete article The right milk for your child
Your first mistake was taking any notice of pseudoscience (naturpaths) other than to mock their ignorance.
Now with Soy in coffee, according to one of my co-workers, It inhibits the body from taking in all of the goodness and nutrients in espresso. Dunno whether this is true or not but could be a worthwhile discussion.
Everything is a poison in the right amount........except espresso of course!
the simple fact that soy milk has phytoestrogen levels says enough for me.
give it to the girls..
Learn more about the topic here. Phytoestrogens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A recent review of the literature of the reproductive health effects of phytoestogens from soy shows that evidence either way is sketchy:
The paper is titled Soy, phytoestrogens and their impact on reproductive health and was published in Molecular and Cellular Endicrinology last year.
Several studies have shown effects on female fertility
"Although available data are highly heterogeneous, a recent meta-analysis of 47 studies concluded that consumption of soy and isoflavones in premenopausal women reduces circulating LH and FSH, and increases menstrual cycle length (Hooper et al., 2009). In contrast no statistical effects were observed on hormonal status in postmenopausal women. Because soy food is increasingly part of the female diet, the clinical relevance of these modest hormonal changes must be examined in further robust studies."
Basically, there are only three studies in the primary literature looking directly at effects on male fertility, and their outcomes are completely contradictory - 1 detects bad effects from phytoestrogens, one detects good effects, and the other finds no effects. The paper also reflects that there is heaps of evidence of negative effects from animal testing, but that the results are hugely variable between different animals, so extrapolating to humans from any of these studies is dodgy science.
"As is the case for women, there is a surprising paucity of studies evaluating the effects of soy and phytoestrogens on fertility and reproductive parameters in men. To our knowledge, only three studies have investigated the impact of soy food or isoflavone intake on semen quality with contradictory results...............Studies focusing on hormonal levels also found no clear effects (or borderline significance) when consuming tofu (70 mg/day isoflavones), soymilk (48 mg/day isoflavones), or soy products (22 mg/day isoflavones; Habito et al., 2000, Nagata et al., 2000 and Nagata et al., 2001). A recent meta-analysis, which included studies that evaluated testosterone levels as a bio-indicator of risks for prostate cancer, suggested out of 32 reports that soy foods or isoflavone intake do not alter free testosterone levels (Hamilton-Reeves et al., 2010)."
"Overall, there is an apparent lack of notable effects, suggesting that regular adult soy-product or isoflavone intake in men causes little detrimental effect on reproduction and fertility. However, this near absence of documented impact emphasizes once again the need for long term, large scale comprehensive human studies."
My take: I wouldn't be too worried, but perhaps if you are a guy trying to squeeze out competent swimmers (I am well past that stage - all roads to freedom for the little guys are blocked), you might want to ease off the soy as one of many measures (boxers, rather than jocks...etc) to maximise all possibilities of sustainingyour genetic line (OK..I said I was a scientist )
My view, FWIW: I believe that I don't have a "long term" window to experiment/test ANYYHING suspect to my health benefits.
If 'science' presents no proof of its harmlessness, (aside from the insinuation that since people aren’t dropping dead, how bad could it be?) personally, I'd much prefer to avoid products of doubt/risk to my well-being. Remember, there’s a big difference between acutely lethal toxicity and insidious, disease-producing toxicity that accumulates over time.
Just because it doesn’t have an instant effect on you, does NOT mean it’s harmless!
And I'm just a coffee lover, not intending to sell my point of view as fact, it's just my take on these things.
So reads the opening comment of this article in the SMH Why soy confused?
Guess I'm lucky I'm OK with ordinary old Moo, and don't have to mess with weird substitutes.
'Soy milk's bad for you" quipped a friend as I ordered a soy latte.
Hardly an authoritative statement that soy is bad, as you seem to be making out!!
You make it sound like the article says that soy is bad.....it doesn't......in fact it says pretty much what my tirade of scientific jargon above says. There is no real evidence that drinking soy milk creates any problems
Having said that, I typically drink lactose free milk rather than soy....but do enjoy the occasional Bonsoy coffee
I'm not 100% sure that drinking either cow's milk or soy is a great bonus to our health, and I don't think the 'Bitty!' approach is socially acceptable outside comedy TV.
Perhaps you should get really controversial and bring up caffeine as a drug?
Unless you are allergic to soy it is probably not a big issue.
Or at least at the moment the scientific evidence is unclear.
I read this bit
and thought that sounded a bit high, so I looked at the NZ heart foundation site and they saidAccording to government statistics, 50 percent of New Zealanders die from heart disease,
so I stopped reading the article, I'm sure the rest of it is just as accurateCardiovascular disease (heart, stroke and blood vessel disease) is still the leading cause of death in New Zealand, accounting for 40% of deaths annually.
As males our body's try to maintain a healthy T to E ratio (testosterone to estergin) we need E but only in the right small amounts,
I think on it's own soy milk just has a very small influence on hormone levels, and on a young healthy male none at all, but as we age our hormone levels change, testosterone drops but estergin does not, this is when the problems start. soy milk is just another drop in the bucket,
but there are many other things that combined together all add up.
I had a laugh - great thread! So talking about soy milk around coffee drinkers is like talking about religion when your p****sed!
I'm too scared to ask about Almond milk or the negative studies around dairy products (i.e. pasturised and homoginised milk).......
I don't drink soy milk as I'm not sure if the soya crops are genetically modified.
If you're referring to the specific gene-modification done in scientific labs, that DOES have strong regulation and food-safety oversight, despite being a lot safer and a lot more precise than the old farmer-splice method.
Either way, you're already eating GMO, and boycotting the safer, more accurate methods available today is a bit ridiculous, IMHO.
The issue (IMO) with this debate is that nobody seems to differentiate between the two overarching types of genetic engineering (the correct names temporarily escape me);
In one form you are moving genes around within a species, i.e. from one phenotype to another, this is what the "old farmer-splicing" method does, it is also done for some (lab-engineered) GMOs, you take say the gene which makes one Soya bean plant resistant to Roundup and introduce it into another Soya bean plant, this form of engineering I have no problem with whatsoever.
In the other form you are taking genes from a disparate, unrelated, and sexually incompatible species and introducing it into the target (a'la glow in the dark rabbits), this form of engineering is where my concern lays, there's just not enough data on long term impacts.
Mind this all ignores my main problem with (lab-engineered) GMOs which can basically be summed up by one word "Monsanto" (more specifically "Gene patents"), I grew up in a farming community, some of the BS Monsanto pull around that sort of thing are frankly disgusting to me. Suing a farmer for IP-infringement because your client's field happened to cross-pollinate some of their crop is just plain wrong. If the Gene patent thing gets fixed (lab-engineered) GMOs will become a lot more palatable to me.
It is interesting to me that the same testing a regulation is NOT required for other gene manipulation techniques we somehow have come to trust because the guy is wearing a flannel shit instead of a lab coat.
Your point on Monsanto is a good one though, and they're responsible for a lot of the bad press & negative hype around GMOs.
In addition, if 1 is healthy and 5 is dangerous on your imaginary "USDA danger scale," then 2 must be relatively safe, no?
Last edited by ASchecter; 21st August 2013 at 12:55 PM. Reason: clarity
i think cheap soy milk is bad for you!
Actually, on a danger scale of 1 to 5, I would be regarding 1 as being the extreme end of the scale!
And yes, I too am anti-soy (non-fermented soy). Totally a poor "health choice" IMHO.