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Thread: Cup fills up before art is finished

  1. #1
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    Cup fills up before art is finished

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Im using Jonesys milk and getting beautiful texture. Also using local beans that have been roasted between 1-3 weeks ago. The drink is delicious and i'm loving my coffee. I get late art but I want it to be better!

    I use a 300ml Incasa jug.

    I feel like when I pour that the milk slips under the crema and doesnt surface and start making patterns until too late into the pour. By the time im making art I hardly have any room left in the cup.

    Could someone please advise what I may be doing wrong?

  2. #2
    Senior Member sidewayss's Avatar
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    Hi potex.

    You have done the job of achieving good textured milk and good tasting coffee which is most important.

    First of all, latte art is very much achieveable using a 300ml jug but i believe better results can come from 600 ml jugs.
    If you can get one 600 ml jug, steam in the 300 ml jug then pour into the side of a warmed 600ml jug with enough milk plus a bit more to fill the cup.
    If the jug is too full, and you pour, you can't get the tip of the jug close enough to the surface and the milk ends up going in through the crema and washing out.

    So, brew a well extracted espresso into your cup.
    Start with enough milk in the jug to fill the cup.
    Tilt the cup at an angle towards the jug so that the tip of the jug has easier access closer to the surface.
    Pour from a height with a fairly thin steady stream to pierce the crema. You can pour directly in the middle or swirl it around until the milk comes halfway or 2/3 up the cup.
    Bring the tip as close as possible to the surface of the crema and start pouring a small bulb to start holding up the microfoam and prevent it from washing out.
    Pour your desired art. If you're starting out, I recommend the heart first as this is the easiest to achieve and will give you more confidence to do other art.
    simonko likes this.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the great reply sideways, i will give it a shot.

    -Ben

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    Quote Originally Posted by potex View Post
    Thanks for the great reply sideways, i will give it a shot.

    -Ben
    Hi Guys, I'm having the same issue Was the 600 Ml jug the issue? I have a 400 ML one, great Microfoam (too me ages, but I got it) but it goes straight below the crema.

    I'm using a Glass, not a round cup, which I know makes it more difficult... but there must be a way to do it... Sometimes I can do it, sometimes I don't.

    The craziest thing is that I can't find why sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't... same coffee, milk and procedures!!!

    Any input is appreciated !

    Cheers!

    - Cherni

  5. #5
    Senior Member Zaneus's Avatar
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    If you're having trouble getting the milk to mark the surface then your milk is either too thin, or you're not pouring close enough and fast enough. The closer the jugs spout is to the top of the coffee you're trying to pour, the easier it'll mark the top. As suggested earlier, tilting your cup towards the pitcher will help close the gap.

    when im training people on pouring i'll tell them to pour high and slow to keep the crema on top and low and fast to mark the top with milk foam. Also if your cup is 200ml, try not to have more than 200mls of steamed milk in your jug. The fuller that jug is the harder it will be to pour. The same principle applies. If the jug is really full then it will start to pour with only a small tilt. This hinders how close you can get to the coffee while pouring.

    After that its just practice. Once you figure out the exact height and speed you need to pour from a whole world of latte art options become available to you.

    you can also try letting the steamed milk sit for 20~ seconds before you pour. As long as its well textured and you 'work' the milk the whole time, it wont split. It will however thicken up slightly and be easier to do designs with. However if you leave it too long and the milk splits you're out of luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaneus View Post
    If you're having trouble getting the milk to mark the surface then your milk is either too thin, or you're not pouring close enough and fast enough. The closer the jugs spout is to the top of the coffee you're trying to pour, the easier it'll mark the top. As suggested earlier, tilting your cup towards the pitcher will help close the gap.

    when im training people on pouring i'll tell them to pour high and slow to keep the crema on top and low and fast to mark the top with milk foam. Also if your cup is 200ml, try not to have more than 200mls of steamed milk in your jug. The fuller that jug is the harder it will be to pour. The same principle applies. If the jug is really full then it will start to pour with only a small tilt. This hinders how close you can get to the coffee while pouring.

    After that its just practice. Once you figure out the exact height and speed you need to pour from a whole world of latte art options become available to you.

    you can also try letting the steamed milk sit for 20~ seconds before you pour. As long as its well textured and you 'work' the milk the whole time, it wont split. It will however thicken up slightly and be easier to do designs with. However if you leave it too long and the milk splits you're out of luck.
    Hi Zaneus,

    Thanks for ur reply. My cup is 230 Ml, so that gives me 170 ML for Milk (I use double 60 ml shots). I use a 400 ML Jug for milk, what you are saying is that I should only put 170 ML in the jug?

    Can you explain the term "too thin"? lack of air?

    Cheers!

  7. #7
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    230mL cup
    ~60mL doubleshot.
    300mL jug

    The milk
    Can you describe the texture and consistency of the milk?
    After you finish pouring a coffee, how much foam in cm is in the cup?
    Are you steaming in a 300mL jug? If so, at what level do you fill the milk, and at what level do you finish?

    The pour
    do you have a steady unbroken flow of milk into the cup?
    how far away from the cup do you pour?
    do you pour close to the crema?

    The crema
    Being a double shot- is it staying kind of thick and chunky and the crema doesn't move or feel 'pliable' when you are pouring milk into the jug?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ant_nakedcoffee View Post
    230mL cup
    ~60mL doubleshot.
    300mL jug

    The milk
    Can you describe the texture and consistency of the milk?
    After you finish pouring a coffee, how much foam in cm is in the cup?
    Are you steaming in a 300mL jug? If so, at what level do you fill the milk, and at what level do you finish?

    The pour
    do you have a steady unbroken flow of milk into the cup?
    how far away from the cup do you pour?
    do you pour close to the crema?

    The crema
    Being a double shot- is it staying kind of thick and chunky and the crema doesn't move or feel 'pliable' when you are pouring milk into the jug?
    Hi Mate,

    Thanks for this... let me answer

    Milk: Texture looks pretty good microfoam, white and shiny surface, no big bubbles. I use the 400 Ml jug, initially I fill it 0,5 ~ 1 cm below the bigging of the spout. Add air first 10 ~ 20 secs and let it swirl till 60C. After stretching I end up with milk 0,5 ~ 1 cm over the spout. After pouring, foam is about 0,5 ~ 1 cm in cup.

    The Pour: Well, I've been experimenting transferring the milk (one heated) from the 400 ML jug to a 600 ml jug. I don't know why, but with the latter I can "draw" something. I don't know if its because I have more room to get closer to the crema or what. Wonder if my 400 Ml jug is good for pouring (just wondering). Also, I dunno if transferring the milk is good technique.

    Going back to the question, I try to do a steady pour and get as close I can to the crema. With the 600 ml Jug I can get closer.

    The Crema: Its thick and while pouring it doesn't move. Its like it's difficult for the microfoam to float on it or pierce through it. Wonder if brewing temperature is an issue.

    Thanks for you help ... believe me this is my greatest concern! It annoys me soo much

    I can upload pictures if it helps!

  9. #9
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    i have an idea of what's going on, but please upload a pic just so I can confirm it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ant_nakedcoffee View Post
    i have an idea of what's going on, but please upload a pic just so I can confirm it.
    Hi Mate,

    Here are some pics... this time I used the 400 ML Jug... as you can see no latte art.

    I will pour this afternoon with the 600 ML Jug and see what happens, same procedure
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ant_nakedcoffee View Post
    i have an idea of what's going on, but please upload a pic just so I can confirm it.
    Hi Mate,

    Here are some pics... this time I used the 400 ML Jug... as you can see no latte art.

    I will pour this afternoon with the 600 ML Jug and see what happens, same procedure

    20130512_104741.jpg20130512_104643.jpg20130512_104634.jpg20130512_104622.jpg20130512_103858.jpg

  12. #12
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    In response to your original question, if you are able to get a pattern out, but you find yourself unable to finish it off before the cup fills then a graphical representation is shown below.
    How much 'time' you have, is how much of the cup you have left to fill before it overflows.

    [-----------------------------------------Time to Pour milk into your cup------------------------------]
    [-----------------------------------------Time it takes you to pour latte art pattern into cup-------------------------------]

    To rectify that, you have to find a way to start the pattern earlier so this happens


    [-----------------------------------------Time to Pour milk into your cup------------------------------]
    [-----------------------------------------Time it takes you to pour latte art pattern into cup-------]



    I don't have similar latte glasses at home, so here's this instead.

    Latte Art: Rosetta Demonstration in response to cherni78 - YouTube

    Chronology

    Preparing crema for the pour

    0.07
    Tilt cup to spread the crema
    Other people swirl the crema a little bit

    0.10-0.15

    Pre-pattern pouring

    Piercing the crema
    Feeling the pour
    Controlling the white marks so it does not pop up too early
    gradually turning the cup so it is level while
    a) simultaneously bringing the jug closer to the crema,
    b) keeping the stream of milk steady

    0.15-0.22

    Doing the pattern

    gentle wiggle to form fronds
    draw back
    pull through and lift up to do stem

    Deconstructing a pattern on youtube

    Have a big long play, but just note the following

    Where I am starting my pour
    How full the cup is when I start a pattern
    Where the stream of milk is when I start the pattern
    How the pattern is created
    a) Whether I am laying the white onto the crema; or
    b) Whether I am using the force of the milk stream to let the white fan out into the cup

    Suggestions for you

    Tilt the glass so the crema is spread out
    pour so that

    a) the stream of milk is flowing parallel to the side of the glasss
    b) the stream of milk is steady and disperses both milk and foam
    c) the stream of milk lands roughly where the cup and crema meet

    When the cup is roughly 70-80% full, try and initiate what you see at approximately 0.15-0.22 in my demo vid.


    Other suggestions

    Watch a some other youtube videos and observe how other people manage their pre-pattern pour, and try and get a feel for how the milk flows.
    Latte art pouring relies on your touch, what you observe when pouring and how you react to what you see
    Pick a method that you seem to respond to, and then try and mimick it as best as you can.

    Note where people drop their stream of milk into a cup
    what they do pre-pattern to fill up the cup
    where the stream is when they go to initiate the pattern
    how the pattern is placed in the crema
    does the white patter get laid down 'on top' of the crema or
    does it fan out from the jug or
    is it a combination of both?


    Now that exceeds the limit of my procrastination for this weekend...
    Please excuse the video size and quality, this was when I was making my own coffee the other day and I decided to try and video it with my mobile (s3 galaxy)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ant_nakedcoffee View Post
    In response to your original question, if you are able to get a pattern out, but you find yourself unable to finish it off before the cup fills then a graphical representation is shown below.
    How much 'time' you have, is how much of the cup you have left to fill before it overflows.

    [-----------------------------------------Time to Pour milk into your cup------------------------------]
    [-----------------------------------------Time it takes you to pour latte art pattern into cup-------------------------------]

    To rectify that, you have to find a way to start the pattern earlier so this happens


    [-----------------------------------------Time to Pour milk into your cup------------------------------]
    [-----------------------------------------Time it takes you to pour latte art pattern into cup-------]



    I don't have similar latte glasses at home, so here's this instead.

    Latte Art: Rosetta Demonstration in response to cherni78 - YouTube

    Chronology

    Preparing crema for the pour

    0.07
    Tilt cup to spread the crema
    Other people swirl the crema a little bit

    0.10-0.15

    Pre-pattern pouring

    Piercing the crema
    Feeling the pour
    Controlling the white marks so it does not pop up too early
    gradually turning the cup so it is level while
    a) simultaneously bringing the jug closer to the crema,
    b) keeping the stream of milk steady

    0.15-0.22

    Doing the pattern

    gentle wiggle to form fronds
    draw back
    pull through and lift up to do stem

    Deconstructing a pattern on youtube

    Have a big long play, but just note the following

    Where I am starting my pour
    How full the cup is when I start a pattern
    Where the stream of milk is when I start the pattern
    How the pattern is created
    a) Whether I am laying the white onto the crema; or
    b) Whether I am using the force of the milk stream to let the white fan out into the cup

    Suggestions for you

    Tilt the glass so the crema is spread out
    pour so that

    a) the stream of milk is flowing parallel to the side of the glasss
    b) the stream of milk is steady and disperses both milk and foam
    c) the stream of milk lands roughly where the cup and crema meet

    When the cup is roughly 70-80% full, try and initiate what you see at approximately 0.15-0.22 in my demo vid.


    Other suggestions

    Watch a some other youtube videos and observe how other people manage their pre-pattern pour, and try and get a feel for how the milk flows.
    Latte art pouring relies on your touch, what you observe when pouring and how you react to what you see
    Pick a method that you seem to respond to, and then try and mimick it as best as you can.

    Note where people drop their stream of milk into a cup
    what they do pre-pattern to fill up the cup
    where the stream is when they go to initiate the pattern
    how the pattern is placed in the crema
    does the white patter get laid down 'on top' of the crema or
    does it fan out from the jug or
    is it a combination of both?


    Now that exceeds the limit of my procrastination for this weekend...
    Please excuse the video size and quality, this was when I was making my own coffee the other day and I decided to try and video it with my mobile (s3 galaxy)

    Hi Mate,

    There are no words to thank you for this! I tried out your suggestions... and it started to work (see attached pics). I used less milk in the 400 ml jug and I pour some art. Also, I inclined much more the glass.

    However, I think I'm having a lot of foam, I will try less next time. What I do notice is that with too much inclination is more difficult to draw a pattern, or maybe its lack of practice?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by cherni78; 13th May 2013 at 08:40 PM.

  14. #14
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    When you are pouring and the white foam is starting to overwhelm the crema

    a) pour from a slight distance away from the crema in order to create a 'weighty' stream of milk
    b) keep the flow of milk constant;
    c) pour the stream on top of any white that you do not want showing

    The effect of this?

    The thin heavy stream of milk drags the white foam back underneath the crema

    You will see a tiny bit of this in action at 0.12 of my video.

    I know that in other comments people recommend starting close to the crema. I personally prefer being slightly further away and almost treating the milk stream like a lasso because I can feel it more.

    Regarding degree of inclination, there are some 'sweet spots' that you will have to find with regards to pour speed, milk stream 'weight' and cup inclination. That's what practice is for



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