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Thread: Does steaming milk negatively affect the nutritional value of milk?

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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Does steaming milk negatively affect the nutritional value of milk?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    This is something I'm hoping that people can provide references for rather than just giving opinions.

    I'm a big fan of milk; it's good for you. Part of the reason is because the proteins contained in milk are "complete" (easy enough to find reliable info on compete proteins and incomplete proteins).

    As someone who drinks ~6 lattes a day I'm pretty interested in whether the daily half-litre-or-so of milk I'm consuming is still nutritionally beneficial after it's been turned in to smooth foamy deliciousness.

    From CoffeeGeek

    “Foam formation is mainly based on the effect that in the boundary layers of the phases, liquid and air molecules are enriched due to a boundary layer activity and therefore stabilize the boundary layers.”
    (Milk and Diary Product Technology, Spreer & Dekker, 1998)

    ...

    When you are steaming milk you are incorporating air into the milk. Proteins are important because they are adsorbed (defined as the adhesion in an extremely thin layer of molecules to the surfaces of solid bodies or liquids with which they are in contact, so don't email me saying I had a typo, and should have spelled it absorbed) by the thin film surrounding an air bubble giving stability to the entrapped air.
    From what I'm reading, there's not actual chemical reaction taking place to alter the molecules, they're just being rearranged... but how about if you overheat the milk? What then?

    Just throwing it out there for discussion.
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    Don't (most?) proteins denature at circa 41°C?
    Egg white is an easy example to picture.
    So you would surely be changing the proteins by steaming the milk to 60ish°C.

    Some proteins can return to their previous form once denaturing source is removed, some can;t (egg white). Not sure about milk proteins.

    No references.

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    Senior Member dski's Avatar
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    I found this one from 1997 in a quick search:

    "Effect of heat treatment on the nutritional quality of milk proteins" (Maria Efigênia, B. Povoa, Tasso Moraes-Santos)
    Abstract:
    Milk, a food of high nutritional value, could have its quality reduced by an intense heat treatment, such as domestic boiling. The goal of the present work was to verify the alteration in nutritional quality of milk proteins submitted to heat treatments through biological tests of the food efficiency ratio, protein efficiency ratio, digestibility and in vitro liver protein synthesis. Pasteurization, domestic boiling of pasteurized milk and an Ultra High Temperature process were used as heat treatments. Weanling Holtzman male rats were used for biological determination and it was found that the treatments did not affect the biological value of milk proteins, except for liver protein synthesis when rats were fed a diet based on boiled pasteurized milk. Considering the great advantage of heat for reducing microbiological contamination, there is no reason to discourage the usual domestic heat treatment used in Brazil.

    Edit: There was a slightly lower weight gain in the rats fed UHT milk (heated to 135'C+) and pasteurised then boiled milk (as is domestic practice in Brasil) than raw and just pasteurised (72'C) milk.
    Last edited by dski; 2nd May 2013 at 12:19 PM. Reason: more detail
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    Senior Member dski's Avatar
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    So for most of us, we are already using milk that has been heated briefly up to 72 degrees C already anyway. I guess the elimination of bacteria has been generally deemed more important than any slight loss of nutritional value. I know that is a bit of a politically charged subject involving the cow to human production chain.

    But does a second heating in making a cup of coffee effect nutrition, probably not much it would seem.

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    The ugly truth about cows milk that the dairy industry has hidden for far to long is that although milk is full of nutrients most of us lowly humans can not absorb those said nutrients in fact the EU now recommend that parents avoid feeding dairy to children many this is because milk and dairy are mucounogenic and line the digestive system with mucous inhibiting the absorption of nutrients in anything consumed with the dairy. The best advice is treat dairy like you would any other junk food and consume in moderation.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    The ugly truth about cows milk that the dairy industry has hidden for far to long is that although milk is full of nutrients most of us lowly humans can not absorb those said nutrients in fact the EU now recommend that parents avoid feeding dairy to children many this is because milk and dairy are mucounogenic and line the digestive system with mucous inhibiting the absorption of nutrients in anything consumed with the dairy. The best advice is treat dairy like you would any other junk food and consume in moderation.
    Lets see some credible scientific references to back your claims up Alexander.

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    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Yeah, if that's the case I'm one of the walking dead…….. ;-)

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    Sorry I cant quote the scientific evidence but My father is a Chiropractor and has been for 30+ years and has done countless professional courses on health and nutrition and how chiropractors can have a positive influence on patient health. and he drilled in to me the warnings that PHD qualified presenters taught him. I believe that this information that I posted is also common knowledge in the wellness and nutrition circles.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    Sorry I cant quote the scientific evidence but My father is a Chiropractor and has been for 30+ years and has done countless professional courses on health and nutrition and how chiropractors can have a positive influence on patient health. and he drilled in to me the warnings that PHD qualified presenters taught him. I believe that this information that I posted is also common knowledge in the wellness and nutrition circles.
    Sorry Alexander, I'm less than convinced.

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    Hi here are some links that support my argument why Cow dairy intake should be limited. Happy reading

    Dairy: 6 Reasons You Should Avoid It at all Costs - Dr. Mark Hyman

    NutritionMD.org :: Understanding the Problems with Dairy Products

    Dangers Of Milk And Dairy Products - The Facts

    PS. Yes I do enjoy a small amount of Cow Dairy (the Colombian I have at the moment just tastes better with full fat A2 milk) but I do see Cows Dairy as Junk Food/Drink and consume accordingly.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    Hi here are some links that support my argument why Cow dairy intake should be limited. Happy reading

    Dairy: 6 Reasons You Should Avoid It at all Costs - Dr. Mark Hyman

    NutritionMD.org :: Understanding the Problems with Dairy Products

    Dangers Of Milk And Dairy Products - The Facts

    PS. Yes I do enjoy a small amount of Cow Dairy (the Colombian I have at the moment just tastes better with full fat A2 milk) but I do see Cows Dairy as Junk Food/Drink and consume accordingly.
    Hmmm, checked out the link to Hyman, then Googled him and came up with this The Wood Engineer: Mark Hyman M.D. QUACK!! branding him a quack, why am I not surprised.
    Don't think I'll bother with the other links.
    As far as you seeing dairy products as junk food, that's your opinion and your entitled to it, fortunately most of us have a different view.

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    Good Grief, here we go again... More Froth and Bubbles....
    Two words.... Taken In 'Moderation' and 'Balance'

    Yeah, alright 5 words- you got me.... Good Grief!

    Of all the worlds ills and poisons- pollution, climate change, smoking, alcohol, dammit salt and sugar... Milk? Please let's keep perspective here- this is a coffee forum YMMV
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    Sorry I cant quote the scientific evidence but My father is a Chiropractor and has been for 30+ years and has done countless professional courses on health and nutrition and how chiropractors can have a positive influence on patient health. and he drilled in to me the warnings that PHD qualified presenters taught him. I believe that this information that I posted is also common knowledge in the wellness and nutrition circles.
    'wellness and nutrition circles' make my alarm bells go off. sorry, but I'd like to see some products of good evidenced based medicine, the same medicine thats brought about the quality of living we all enjoy now. I work and study in that same field and its things labelled 'wellness' that seem to do more harm than good to many patients i've come across - things like homeopathic vaccinations and the like. you're more than welcome to have your own opinion, but please dont speak of the 'research' like it's the be all and end all of what we should follow.
    also i'd look up the origins of chiropractic 'medicine' before i base claims on the profession. i hate to be of any offence but it is frustrating to see that not all schools of chiropractic medicine have subscribed to evidenced based practice - which all other health professions do.

    Yes, milk does have good nutritional value but most of us (especially Asians) have not adapted to milk as an important source of nutrition. cow's milk is meant for cows, and some of us have problems adapting to the sugars in cows milk (lactose intolerance) but essentially milk has not shown to harmful, unless you're taking nothing else but cows milk... which is why ol grumpy is bang on. to top it off, food regulation authorities have made milk that much better by fortifying them with various micro nutrients lacking in our diets cos we're lazy

    everything in moderation. also we've completely side-tracked from the question in the OP. =p

    the denaturing of proteins doesnt affect nutritional protein-intake value by very much. our digestive tracts break them down into the amino acids they're made of anyway. the same would then go for irreversibly changing the protein structure (bond breaking to make amino acids or denaturing into a different structure). i dont remember at what temperature the amino acid molecules break down into the atoms they're made of but i'd safely assume that would be way past the boiling point of the milk anyway. the lack of protein structure would presumably lead to the lack of foam. just like soap with long non-polar chains creating the bubbles, id assume textured milk would require the same thing for its foam... or rather different structures lead to different types of foam...
    it probably tastes different because the altered protein structures just do.

    im not sure where you've gotten that cows milk proteins are especially good for us due to their quaternary/tertiary structures, but will look into it when i do have the time.

    my 2 cents

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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    Sorry I cant quote the scientific evidence but My father is a Chiropractor
    Stopped reading right about here.

    FWIW I started drinking a substantial amount of milk a little while ago because I need easy calories/protein and have put on a substantial amount of weight (relative to the amount of time I've been consuming it).

    That muscle/fat didn't come from nowhere, guess that makes me a God for being able to utilise the nutrition within. Someone should probably tell bodybuilders to stop using whey too I suppose.

    I'd love to hear an explanation of how this mucogenic thing works, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Don't think I'll bother with the other links.
    You're really missing out...

    LEADING CAUSES OF DEATH IN AMERICA

    Rank Total Description

    1 724,859 Heart Disease (think fats/cholesterol: meat/dairy)
    2 541,532 Malignant Neoplasms (cancer: think toxins/milk/dairy)
    2a 250,000 Medical system (drugs/etc. think ignorance/incompetence)
    3 158,448 Cerebro-vascular (think meat milk and dairy)
    4 112,584 Bronchitis Emphysema Asthma (think toxins/milk/dairy)
    5 97,835 Unintentional Injuries and Adverse Effects
    6 91,871 Pneumonia & Influenza (think weak immune systems and
    mucus)
    7 64,751 Diabetes (think milk/dairy)
    7a 40,000+ Highway slaughter (men, women and children)
    8 30,575 Suicide (think behavioral problems)
    9 26,182 Nephritis (Bright's disease: inflammation of the
    kidneys)
    10 25,192 Liver Disease (think alcohol and other toxins)
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    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
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    The Health industry might not be a good one to use as a comparison of 'evidence based' methodology and provision. There are many, many drugs and practices that are done for profit margins rather than results and it ain't getting any better. SSRI's are one entire class of drugs being commonly prescribed in spite of the evidence the side effects and social results are much worse than the reasons they are prescribed. For those interested in scaring yourself, check out Index to SSRI Stories

    And I have met a number of chiros who I think should be barred from practice but I have also met some who go close to the 'miracle worker' classification - do we condemn all Doctors because Dr Death killed a few people?

    As for milk, I haven't really liked it much since they stopped allowing local farmers to make it available to people who took containers to the farm. And homogenising didn't improve matters for me, but the final straw was the plastic containers and the taste they give to the milk. To me, what they do to milk kills it - the enzymes for example that used to come along with a glass of milk get destroyed in the processing so it is now just dead calcium liquid.

    I find it interesting to look at the vast increase in lactose intolerance and the milk that is triggering it. I come from a generation where milk was provided every morning at school as well as delivered to the home, and I was a milk monitor at Primary school - (I was big enough to carry the crates ) I think there was one person in the school who was not allowed milk. Now it's common.

    I don't think the extra heat treatment affects the milk very much at all, unless as noted above it reaches the breakdown point, although I might feel differently if I had access to real milk to compare the before and after.

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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    The Health industry might not be a good one to use as a comparison of 'evidence based' methodology and provision. There are many, many drugs and practices that are done for profit margins rather than results and it ain't getting any better. SSRI's are one entire class of drugs being commonly prescribed in spite of the evidence the side effects and social results are much worse than the reasons they are prescribed. For those interested in scaring yourself, check out Index to SSRI Stories
    That's one that you might want to hold off on commenting on from an armchair position. Antidepressants are overprescribed, it seems, but they can help people, no doubt. Their side-effects can be intensely negative and outweigh the benefits they provide (which for some is nil). That is not the same thing as saying their side-effects "are" worse than the conditions they treat.

    Psychology is an easy target as far as medicine goes because it's still not easily measurable/defineable in a lot of areas.


    And I have met a number of chiros who I think should be barred from practice but I have also met some who go close to the 'miracle worker' classification - do we condemn all Doctors because Dr Death killed a few people?
    I'm sure that some chiropractors are very good at what they do (which is provide chiropractic adjustments). Thinking that people should take your word for silly claims regarding nutritional biochemistry because your Dad is a chriopractor is a bit ridiculous.

    If I were to condemn chiropractic as a whole, it would be because its fundamental concepts are rooted in dogmatic pseudoscience. It's closer to faith healing than medicine as far as I'm concerned.

    As for milk, I haven't really liked it much since they stopped allowing local farmers to make it available to people who took containers to the farm. And homogenising didn't improve matters for me, but the final straw was the plastic containers and the taste they give to the milk. To me, what they do to milk kills it - the enzymes for example that used to come along with a glass of milk get destroyed in the processing so it is now just dead calcium liquid.
    Albeit packed with quality carbohydrates, fats and complete proteins. :P

    I find it interesting to look at the vast increase in lactose intolerance and the milk that is triggering it. I come from a generation where milk was provided every morning at school as well as delivered to the home, and I was a milk monitor at Primary school - (I was big enough to carry the crates ) I think there was one person in the school who was not allowed milk. Now it's common.
    Yeah, it's weird, and that goes for allergens in general (is lactose intolerance considered an allergic reaction or is it just an inability to process something?)
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    Senior Member smokey's Avatar
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    The milk we get these days is not the milk we got 50 years ago. Many years ago I worked in the food industry as a food laboratory technician, its quite frightening what we can do with molecules to make them into products for human consumption.

    I could go on and on about psychotropic medication, I see what it can do to people every day and I am glad I don't need them.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokey View Post
    The milk we get these days is not the milk we got 50 years ago.
    Thank goodness for that, I guess if you have it in your head that todays milk products are unsafe or, you dislike the taste etc, the choice is easy, don't consume them.
    It's irresponsible to attempt to scare the begeejus out of people re dairy products (an important source of nutrition for many people) simply because of personal prejudice or mistaken beliefs.

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    Not wanting to specifically have a go at alexander or his father here.

    The Australian Chiropractic industry is in crisis in this country. It is at a crossroads as to whether it wants to be based on woo-woo quackery or physiology based spinal experts (ie more or less physio's )

    Until the CAA stamps out, or rather stops leading it's members into being major distributors of Anti-vax misinformation, it can have no scientific credibility.

    Chiropractors make up by far the biggest professional group who are members of the Anti Vaccination Network. In this manner they misuse the term "Dr" as every other medical association and real doctor in the country is trying their hardest to get the vaccination message out there.

    I could go on but I'll reign myself in..

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    Senior Member smokey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Thank goodness for that, I guess if you have it in your head that todays milk products are unsafe or, you dislike the taste etc, the choice is easy, don't consume them.
    It's irresponsible to attempt to scare the begeejus out of people re dairy products (an important source of nutrition for many people) simply because of personal prejudice or mistaken beliefs.
    Yelta, I thought this forum was for people to express their views?

    Seriously, everyone has an opinion and the right to express it, and good people have died for your right to express yours. I admire alexander and anyone else who is brave enough to go on a forum and state his opinion as he has despite the avalanche of negativity and impolite comments he has received.

    Ease up guys, its just a coffee forum.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokey View Post
    Yelta, I thought this forum was for people to express their views?
    It is, and I've just expressed mine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    Sorry I cant quote the scientific evidence but My father is a Chiropractor and has been for 30+ years and has done countless professional courses on health and nutrition and how chiropractors can have a positive influence on patient health. and he drilled in to me the warnings that PHD qualified presenters taught him. I believe that this information that I posted is also common knowledge in the wellness and nutrition circles.
    Enough said. Chiropractors are borderline quacks anyway, based mostly on pseudo-science and unverified claims of efficacy. The therapeutic benefit of chiropractic treatments is the same as an manual manipulation of the body: ie, you'd do just as well getting a massage. Moreover, some practices promoted by chiropractors is actually dangerous and potentially harmful.

    Bring in the peer-reviewed science please.

    /rant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    That's one that you might want to hold off on commenting on from an armchair position. Antidepressants are overprescribed, it seems, but they can help people, no doubt. Their side-effects can be intensely negative and outweigh the benefits they provide (which for some is nil). That is not the same thing as saying their side-effects "are" worse than the conditions they treat.
    *grins* Did you read the link?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    Psychology is an easy target as far as medicine goes because it's still not easily measurable/defineable in a lot of areas.
    In Science that normally means you're running with the wrong paradigm. Nothing will change or get easier in the field until they change that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    I'm sure that some chiropractors are very good at what they do (which is provide chiropractic adjustments). Thinking that people should take your word for silly claims regarding nutritional biochemistry because your Dad is a chriopractor is a bit ridiculous.
    Agreed. But our society does a lot of that kind of thing. And we don't know, but his father might have Chiro on the shingle but have looked into nutrition and other fields as adjuncts to his work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    If I were to condemn chiropractic as a whole, it would be because its fundamental concepts are rooted in dogmatic pseudoscience. It's closer to faith healing than medicine as far as I'm concerned.
    I would suggest maybe looking closer. Good Chiro work is based solidly in physics. It's to do with leverage and physical effects caused due to trauma (physical or mental) or injury. Kinesiology is soundly based in the connective tissue system and understanding how the body functions as a complete system.

    Don't throw out the field because some effwits see it as a path to riches with the cookie-cutter, 'one-trick-suits-all' approach.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    Albeit packed with quality carbohydrates, fats and complete proteins. :P
    Yeah, it's weird, and that goes for allergens in general (is lactose intolerance considered an allergic reaction or is it just an inability to process something?)
    Pretty sure it is seen as an inability to process, but that might have changed in 20 years or so. (since I looked into it last) Probably by now it is a 'syndrome' or even a 'disorder.'

    The point I see is that we now have trouble processing it because we strip out the very things that helped us do so. Live milk doesn't cause an intolerance or we would have seen it all around in the days when kids were being fed milk constantly.

    The calcium drink they feed us now, even with carbohydrates, fats and complete proteins (although the completness of some of the proteins might be in doubt given the processing methods) is much more difficult to digest and so lots of people are now labelled as lactose intolerant.

    Note this is just my ideas based on observation and experience. I think checking to see how our modern 'hygiene' is killing us is another of those questions you can't ask and still get funding.

    I'd love to get some real milk from a farm and try it with my coffee - I wonder how well it would texture? Do we have anyone on site who was a professional barista long enough ago to recall when milk was in bottles and had a couple of inches of cream floating on top until you shook it up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by timdimdom View Post
    Yes, milk does have good nutritional value but most of us (especially Asians) have not adapted to milk as an important source of nutrition. cow's milk is meant for cows, and some of us have problems adapting to the sugars in cows milk (lactose intolerance)
    Lactose intolerance isn't so much because it's cows milk, it's because most mammals, including a lot of humans, lose the ability to process lactose after they have been weaned.
    Feed a full grown cow enough cows milk and it'll also be intolerant of the lactose.
    This is why rennet (the enzyme that breaks down milk for cheese making) is commonly made from veal stomachs.

    As for the OP question - pasteurised milk has already been heat treated, so I doubt reheating it for coffee will do much to the vitamins and minerals contained within. It has already been stripped of any beneficial enzymes.

    Wikipedia tells me that microfoam is made possible through the denaturing of milk proteins which then better hold gas (air) within the liquid mixture. I can find scientific articles talking about the nutritional effect of denaturing milk at high temperatures, but they are focused on the baby formula industry where the milk is processed at up to 121c and they do cause a substantial loss of vitamins.
    At coffee temperature with the short duration of heating it should do very little except make the denatured proteins a little quicker to digest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    The Health industry might not be a good one to use as a comparison of 'evidence based' methodology and provision. There are many, many drugs and practices that are done for profit margins rather than results and it ain't getting any better. SSRI's are one entire class of drugs being commonly prescribed in spite of the evidence the side effects and social results are much worse than the reasons they are prescribed. For those interested in scaring yourself, check out Index to SSRI Stories
    I may be mis-reading your comment Journeyman, so perhaps you should qualify it. Maybe you're in a different country, but if you're referring to the non-alternative (Medical) healthcare sector in Australia you're a bit off the mark, there is a very heavy emphasis on evidence based practice in modern medicine, but you'd know this if you worked in the sector. Profit doesn't really feature in the Australian healthcare industry as Medicare determines indications and fees for every consultation and procedure, and is in turn tax funded.

    I agree that big Pharma is only out to make a buck, but the pharmaceutical benefits scheme (PBS) will only fund medication for which evidence of benefit and a favourable cost-benefit balance exists. Doctors in the public sector therefore have a limited choice of medications for any specified indication, and are subject to frequent audit. None of this is based on profit - no-one in the medical sector makes any profit from medication, therefore no incentive exists to prescribe any particular drug. The PBS also ensures they pay the lowest possible prices for medication, which is why the USA want the PBS scrapped as part of a free trade agreement! Funny that. Attempts in the USA to create a healthcare system (Obamacare) similar to what we have in Aus is exactly what the whole ruckus in the US is currently about.

    As for the whole SSRI issue (Yawn...) - I am assuming you have a better treatment for depression/anxiety up your sleeve. Please, please, please publish your evidence, we'd love to see evidence for an effective treatment that doesn't have limiting side-effects. All medications have potential side-effects and have to go through several costly trials to prove efficacy and safety, demonising any particular class because of rare, severe adverse events or more common minor side-effects doesn't make any sense.

    I've really enjoyed this thread up to now, had a really good laugh, it just seems to have gone completely off track. It never ceases to amaze me how many gullible people there are in this world, and the internet hasn't changed anything. There have been quacks and snake oil salesmen as long as we've been human, and they will continue to make their buck as long as humans remain this gullible. It's always worth remembering that the alternative health industry in Aus is a multi-billion $ enterprise, clean profit straight into private pockets without any burden whatsoever to provide any scrap of evidence for efficacy or safety.

    FWIW I don't believe steaming milk alters its nutritional value in any way, as mentioned by several sensible individuals before, it has already been heat treated and proteins (enzymes ARE proteins BTW) aren't absorbed intact but as amino acids. Almost all of our protein intake is fully cooked anyway, which makes it safer and easier to digest. Most of us definitely don't drink coffee for its nutritional value either, so it's pretty much beside the point. I still stand by my view that if it doesn't have teats it can't make milk. Don't know when last I saw an almond with teats...

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    Ah, another one who didn't go read the link... le sigh...

    This is getting way OT. Depression is far better treated with cleaning up diet and a better lifestyle. We breathe, eat and drink noxious chemicals continuously. As for no pressure to prescribe drugs, I've seen the software Doctors use - every page has adverts targetting the things they are looking at. Palliative care is not a medical model, it is a profit model. 'nuff said.

    Enzymes might be proteins, but they are catalytic proteins. The are very large molecules that enhance or control chemical reactions, which is why I think they are needed in milk. And I have yet to see anyone else explain why there is a coincidence in timing between the growth of lactose intolerance and the enforced changes we've had to endure in our milk supply. If the dead milk is so good for us, why did the Govt bodies come over so heavy handed in forcing farmers to cease supplying locals? I know in Orbost there was bloody near a revolt over the issue - the locals just didn't like the new milk and that was even before it went into plastic.

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    And I have yet to see anyone else explain why there is a coincidence in timing between the growth of lactose intolerance and the enforced changes we've had to endure in our milk supply.
    Surely the only coincidence that we are capable of observing is between *diagnosed* lactose intolerance and whatever these changes to our milk supply are?

    Is there properly controlled epidemiological evidence that links the two? There are thousands of PhD students and post-docs out there looking for a cool topic....hard to believe the idea has been though of....
    Just sayin...

  28. #28
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
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    True dat, Barry... but then there are many topics it is academic suicide to tackle. AGW, 2nd Hand smoking, anything that erodes the Relativity schema, (as mentioned above) the vaccination issues, fluoride in water and many more. Once the Political machine moved in on the funding for Science, Science stopped being Science and became justification for funding/tenure.

    It is difficult enough to get people who have NO vested interest in a subject to look at an holistic view of it, let alone get someone who has been programmed into a view to risk their entire careers (& sometimes lives) on stepping outside the box.

    And it is exactly that coincidence I am talking about, (between *diagnosed* lactose intolerance and whatever these changes to our milk supp) so I am unsure why you mention it?

  29. #29
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    This is getting way OT. Depression is far better treated with cleaning up diet and a better lifestyle. We breathe, eat and drink noxious chemicals continuously. As for no pressure to prescribe drugs, I've seen the software Doctors use - every page has adverts targetting the things they are looking at. Palliative care is not a medical model, it is a profit model. 'nuff said.
    Speaking as someone with both family and friends with depression who have at times utilised SSRIs (some with great success, some without), lemme say that that's a very narrow-minded view. These are people who aren't stupid and live better, healthier lifestyles than most. Bit like saying that ritalin is a rort and ADHD is better treated by disciplining your kids.

    As for palliative care, it, by definition, means "making people comfortable while they die". What exactly are you expecting in the way of a "medical model"?

  30. #30
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post

    And it is exactly that coincidence I am talking about, (between *diagnosed* lactose intolerance and whatever these changes to our milk supp) so I am unsure why you mention it?
    I mention it simply because the diagnosed rate of many conditions is increasing with calendar time, as is the treatment that you propose (i.e. the change in milk supply). As more people become aware of the existence of lactose intolerance, it becomes more likely that they will be diagnosed as such.

    So if the response variable (observed incidence of lactose intolerance) is regressed against a variable that is correlated with the progression of calendar years there is a threat of spurious correlation.
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    Journeyman - It's easy to believe you have all the answers when you are asking the wrong question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Palliative care is not a medical model, it is a profit model. 'nuff said.
    I have not the faintest idea what you're on about, not sure you do either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    I'd love to get some real milk from a farm and try it with my coffee - I wonder how well it would texture? Do we have anyone on site who was a professional barista long enough ago to recall when milk was in bottles and had a couple of inches of cream floating on top until you shook it up?
    I'm enjoying this topic, but assume most people have given up on it. In case anyone is interested...
    I've tried making coffee a few times from milk sourced straight from a nearby dairy and struggled to get any decent microfoam. I'm no latte art expert but can get reasonable foam from commercial milk but really struggled with this milk. Couldn't get any body through stretching whatsoever. It was the morning milking milk so in theory higher in protein than evening milk. Better for cheese, but in my experience not coffee. Also tasted funny as a coffee.
    Tasted great by itself and I prefer drinking raw milk by the glass than commercial, but for coffee commercial everytime. I tried a few batches weeks apart and then gave up. Not a rigorous scientific trial! Google has lots of hits for raw milk makes coffee taste bad. Ymmv as also lots of hits will be in a similar vein to our chiro versus big pharma discussion.

  34. #34
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    It's funny how often such conversations end up with those who follow the orthodox line talking about the person making the comments instead of the comments. Makes you wonder what it is about those who believe what they're told by Authority that leaves them incapable of having a civilised conversation. *shrugs*

    @Dragunov - speaking as one who has depression and has dealt/lived/associated with many other people who have either experienced it or have it as a chronic condition, the drugs are no kind of a solution. Repressing symptoms doesn't help and if you take a look at that link I gave you will see what kind of effects such treatment has. Scroll to the bottom of the list.

    @MrJack - I wasn't aware I was asking a question - I was simply giving my view on an association I noticed through living my life. But even so you aren't correct. Asking wrong questions doesn't lead one to believe they have all the answers. That comes from believing the 'gospel according to Consensus and Authority' and so failing to ask any questions at all.

    And some of our best progress has come from somebody asking the wrong question.
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    I was trying to imply that if you don't identity and then scrutinise your assumptions it's easy to draw conclusions which appear valid but which may not be.

    To propose that the increase in lactose intolerance is result of pasteurisation of milk, would first require evidence that it had actually increased. I would also ask how those who are not lactose intolerant seem to manage, if pasteurisation destroys something necessary for it to be processed.
    Last edited by MrJack; 24th October 2013 at 01:21 AM.

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Now that we have all met (been subjected to) the founding fathers of MilkSnobs can we please move on and get back to being pleasant Coffee Snobbers before this all becomes too sour and rancid (pun intended) for the community at large?
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    Now that we have all met (been subjected to) the founding fathers of MilkSnobs can we please move on and get back to being pleasant Coffee Snobbers before this all becomes too sour and rancid (pun intended) for the community at large?
    cant disagree with that. =)

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    @Dragunov - speaking as one who has depression and has dealt/lived/associated with many other people who have either experienced it or have it as a chronic condition, the drugs are no kind of a solution. Repressing symptoms doesn't help and if you take a look at that link I gave you will see what kind of effects such treatment has. Scroll to the bottom of the list.
    I did check out your link. You're missing the point. It lists the side-effects that may be experienced. I'm not discounting that SSRIs weren't beneficial for you or your friends/family. The same goes for some of mine. That does not change the fact that for others, they are a very useful tool for treating something that they have found impossible to treat through other means.

    With the pharma industry the way it is, there is no doubt that overprescribing goes on (especially in the US). That speaks towards problems with the industry, not SSRIs as a whole. You're taking an absolutist position that is not supported by the experiences of those who have found SSRIs beneficial.

  39. #39
    Senior Member smokey's Avatar
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    Back on topic, I use powdered milk in my espresso, no one at home drinks milk so the easiest way for me is to buy it in this unique form. Works fine for me and if I don't tell the guests they can't pick it. Does that make me a milk coffee snob?

    Please all, a reminder of forum good manners - it is acceptable to engage the topic aggressively, but NOT to attack the debater. Personal insults, put downs and criticisms are unwelcome on this forum and are a violation of the forum TOS. This is a forum for us all to express our opinions, to debate these opinions and enjoy the fun side of coffee making.
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    Have I missed the point?
    i thought this was a COFFEE forum....

  41. #41
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Dave View Post
    Have I missed the point?
    i thought this was a COFFEE forum....
    Well, to be fair, this is in a sub-forum called 'Milk, Froth and Bubbles.....'. So a polite discussion of issues relating to the milk that many people consume with their coffee is hardly out of place.
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    @Smokey - I also use powdered milk for my espresso (and anything else requiring it) and find it much improved in flavour over the plastic milk. Nobody has picked up on it except to comment how nice my coffees, hot chocs and Chai lattés are. It makes very good foam and doesn't have the after taste of normal milk. I use Aldi's (Farmdale I think) or the Coles brand full cream. From the packets I'm pretty sure they come from the same maker. (Aldi's has a lot of products that are exactly the same as in Coles/Woolies but with different names)
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokey View Post
    I use powdered milk in my espresso, no one at home drinks milk so the easiest way for me is to buy it in this unique form. Works fine for me and if I don't tell the guests they can't pick it. Does that make me a milk coffee snob?
    Morning Smokey,

    Probably doesn't make you a milk coffee snob, what it more than likely indicates is that you have very polite guests.
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    Powdered milk... Well I never gave that a moments thought?
    Over 30 years ago I was with my wife, then girlfriend, in Penang and after two weeks solid of well you know what young lovers get up to... And only eating food cart food (which is outstanding if you can stomach it).... when we came up for air... Well I was back in KL and I just wanted to eat something 'homely' and we saw a KFC shop and I ordered a 'thick shake'.... Can you see what's coming; I didn't... I took a huge gulp... Only to discover that in the land of cows being 'gods'...
    One makes milk with powder and Thick shakes with much, much... Much more powder...

    I haven't touched the horrid stuff since...

    And that includes the six odd years I mixed 'formula' for our babies, not one drop ever touched my lips.....

    Perhaps, and I stress *perhaps* they have improved the formula...

    In the interests of having a 'Flat White' whilst camping, I will put myself forward as a guinea pig, and test this new theory.... Aldi Full Cream... Righto, here we go...
    Bottoms up!
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  45. #45
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    *grins* Are you sure the Thai stuff was cows milk? I tried a KFC in Cairo and got something only vaguely like chicken. It wasn't bad, just not at all what I expected.

    Good luck with the trial - 1 std cup per litre is normal; I use about 2 cups for 1.5L because I like the extra creamy taste.

    Oh... and mix it in cold water - tends to go lumpy in hot. The missus thought hot water would make it mix better and she could pour it straight on her oats. Is not so good... (pun intended )

  46. #46
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    I'm personally surprised that evil geniuses at Nestle were allowed to encourage us to 'Keep a Cow in the Cupboard' for so long.

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    My mistake,
    I wasn't aware that a discussion on Depression, anti-depressants, chiropractors
    etc made it into 'Milk, Froth and Bubbles.....'.

    Well, to be fair, this is in a sub-forum called 'Milk, Froth and Bubbles.....'. So a polite discussion of issues relating to the milk that many people consume with their coffee is hardly out of place.

    Depression is far better treated with cleaning up diet and a better lifestyle. We breathe, eat and drink noxious chemicals continuously. As for no pressure to prescribe drugs, I've seen the software Doctors use - every page has adverts targetting the things they are looking at. Palliative care is not a medical model, it is a profit model. 'nuff said....
    The Health industry might not be a good one to use as a comparison of 'evidence based' methodology and provision. There are many, many drugs and practices that are done for profit margins rather than results and it ain't getting any better. SSRI's are one entire class of drugs being commonly prescribed in spite of the evidence the side effects and social results are much worse than the reasons they are prescribed. For those interested in scaring yourself, check out Index to SSRI Stories
    etc etc
    Are we able to move on to Coffee related things yet?
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  48. #48
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    We already did...

  49. #49
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Dave View Post
    My mistake,
    I wasn't aware that a discussion on Depression, anti-depressants, chiropractors
    etc made it into 'Milk, Froth and Bubbles.....'.

    Well, to be fair, this is in a sub-forum called 'Milk, Froth and Bubbles.....'. So a polite discussion of issues relating to the milk that many people consume with their coffee is hardly out of place.

    Depression is far better treated with cleaning up diet and a better lifestyle. We breathe, eat and drink noxious chemicals continuously. As for no pressure to prescribe drugs, I've seen the software Doctors use - every page has adverts targetting the things they are looking at. Palliative care is not a medical model, it is a profit model. 'nuff said....
    The Health industry might not be a good one to use as a comparison of 'evidence based' methodology and provision. There are many, many drugs and practices that are done for profit margins rather than results and it ain't getting any better. SSRI's are one entire class of drugs being commonly prescribed in spite of the evidence the side effects and social results are much worse than the reasons they are prescribed. For those interested in scaring yourself, check out Index to SSRI Stories
    etc etc
    Are we able to move on to Coffee related things yet?
    Well, you made your post without reference to any particular other post (or the general drift of some posts), and as it turned out, immediately subsequent to a post that was spot on topic....i.e. about the use of powdered milk in coffee. And the subsequent discussion has stayed on that thread. So when you follow an on-topic post about milk in coffee with a request to talk about coffee.........

  50. #50
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol_Grumpy View Post
    ... Well I was back in KL and I just wanted to eat something 'homely' and we saw a KFC shop and I ordered a 'thick shake'.... Can you see what's coming; I didn't... I took a huge gulp... Only to discover that in the land of cows being 'gods'..."
    Last time I checked, "the land of cows being 'gods' " was in fact India, more specifically the predominately Hindu parts of India and that Malaysia was a vastly Muslim nation, with a smattering of Christian and Buddhist Chinese sprinkled around KL and the larger regional centres. None of these religions proscribes the drinking of cows milk and "milk tea" happens to be one of the most common beverages in the country (albeit usually made with condensed milk) and fresh milk can be readily found at both convenience stores and supermarkets. I'm not saying that your milkshake experience in KL wasn't a bad one though... but god-like cows had nothing to do with it.



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