Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 100
Like Tree17Likes

Thread: Silky Milky

  1. #1
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Central Queensland
    Posts
    1,107

    Silky Milky

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    The family had some coffees (mine was a Piccolo Latte) in a cafe in another town a few weeks ago and we were impressed with the creamy/silky quality of the milk.
    At home I normally use what is in the fridge, which is Paul's Low Fat Trim.
    Of late I have been having very variable results with this, often struggling to get microfoam and a nice texture.
    Last couple of weeks I have bought a litre of Woolies Home Brand Whole Milk specifically for the coffee, and what a difference it makes.

    The experiment also brought it home to me how much the QUANTITY in your jug makes to the steaming operation.
    As someone who hates 'waste' I have always endeavoured to put the 'right' amount of milk in my jug for the coffees I am making, but it has become clear to me that for any given size jug there is a MINIMUM amount of milk that will work.
    I'm usually only doing enough milk for a 120ml Latte and another 60ml or less for a Piccolo. In a 600ml jug I end up with it over the top of the jug, but in a 1 litre jug it blows bubbles everywhere due to insufficient depth in the jug.
    Anyone else relate to this?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    First a caveat - I have no idea what your experience is; I don't recall off hand reading anything else of yours but the desperado one... So if I am teaching how to suck eggs, don't be upset.

    180ml of milk in a 600ml jug fills the jug to overflowing? Either I am misunderstanding or something is wrong. My 600ml jug I fill to under half (about 1cm below the beginning of the spout) and foam it for a mug of Latté. At that point (it's a big mug) my milk is about 1cm above the beginning of the spout, i.e. nowhere near the top of the jug even with it on an angle.

    Ditto the above measures in my 1L jug for 2 big mugs.

    Here is what I do - I start the steam (give it a couple of secs to blow out the water and start steam) then turn it off, put the jug in place on an angle and after maybe 3 - 5 secs I start texturing. The jug is on a fairly steep angle and I note where the milk is to begin.

    When the milk has increased in depth by about 1/3 or so, I push the tip further in and concentrate on heating the milk to the right temp. (I have a thermometer now but I used to just tap the jug side to check for the temp at which I could not possibly leave my fingers there)

    As the sound changes (kind of a background noise that deepens in pitch - means the milk is approaching the right temp) I do a little more texturing, but stop that for the last 15 seconds or so.

    Turn off steam, wait a few secs as it dies and remove the jug smoothly from the wand at the same angle the wand is. As soon as I turn off the steam I grab my moist cloth and as the wand comes clear I wrap it and clean it.

    Pour milk.

    I also hate waste and always get very close to the right amount of milk in there - if I have wasted 250ml of milk in 10 months I'll bare my bum. I've never had the milk rise anywhere near going over the top and I make no claims to being a pro at this... well maybe in my ability to judge how much milk it takes to fill different size cups.

    Blowing bubbles in the milk sounds like you might be steaming with the jug straight up&down rather than on an angle and placing it so the wand goes down where the spout is. Maybe turn it around so the milk is on an angle and the wand goes into it properly?

  3. #3
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    PRL
    Posts
    2,655
    Any chance that you mean to refer to a 210ml latte and 60ml piccolo, Rocky? I mean stretching 180ml of milk to approximately 60ccs in volume seems a bit 'of a stretch'? I comfortably make milk for 2 x 220ml latte/flat whites in my approximately 600ml jug.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Central Queensland
    Posts
    1,107
    Ummm, interesting.
    The Latte is a Terra Keramik cup (150ml full) & the Piccolo a standard Duralex (100ml full).
    I have never done the 'jug-on-the-side' thing, but I will give it a try.
    The milk itself doesn't stretch to the top of the jug - the foam would be the top 30 or 40 mm at least and then settles a little when the steam is stopped.
    When I'm steaming well the temp hits 70 degrees about the time the foam is ready to overflow. This gives me the amount of micro-foam I want on the top of the Lattes (about a cm.)
    The Diadema steams like a steam train and when the foam comes up it does so in a hurry.
    I was thinking the 'Blowing bubbles' phenomenon is probably only related to too little milk in too big a jug.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    PRL
    Posts
    2,655
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Ummm, interesting.
    The Latte is a Terra Keramik cup (150ml full) & the Piccolo a standard Duralex (100ml full).
    I have never done the 'jug-on-the-side' thing, but I will give it a try.
    The milk itself doesn't stretch to the top of the jug - the foam would be the top 30 or 40 mm at least and then settles a little when the steam is stopped.
    When I'm steaming well the temp hits 70 degrees about the time the foam is ready to overflow. This gives me the amount of micro-foam I want on the top of the Lattes (about a cm.)
    The Diadema steams like a steam train and when the foam comes up it does so in a hurry.
    I was thinking the 'Blowing bubbles' phenomenon is probably only related to too little milk in too big a jug.
    Ahhhh the 70 degrees thing....that's a fair bit warmer than I make my milk (also in a Diadema)...I pull the wand at 55 degrees which results in milk around 61-62 degrees (my thermometer is a bit slow).

  6. #6
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    It may be easier to blow bubbles with only a little milk but as far as I know it is solely to do with the depth and angle of the wand tip - straight down into the milk makes it difficult to get the ffft-ffft-ffft sound of good texturing. That sound comes when the tip is just under the surface, on an angle, and the steam pressure forms a 'hole' in the surface that keeps collapsing in - if you get a constant sound that will blow bubbles & probably foam across the surface.

    The magic sound comes from the continual hole-collapse-hole effect. Each collapse forms bubbles that get pushed around the jug in a swirl, which is why the angle between the wand and milk surface is needed. Without that angle you push bubbles straight down into the milk, which, thinking about it, would simply make lotsa bubbles instead of microfoam.

    I've successfully foamed enough milk for a macchiato in my 600ml - I like it slightly milkier than normal so that's about 50ml - it was a delicate operation at about half power on the steam, but it's not too difficult.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    PRL
    Posts
    2,655
    Journeyman, don't forget that different steam wands / tips have a different number of steam holes, and these steam holes have different angles of incidence relative to the wand. For example, have a look at the KK method for for stretching milk (in this sub-forum)....it involves a steam wand inserted at no angle.
    Dragunov21 likes this.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    WA, perth
    Posts
    247
    from what has worked for me,
    the less milk i have in the jug the more i angle it to give the milk some depth for the steam to roll into.
    i found the same, that the jug size does change the minimum amount of milk you can steam well, and angling allows for less milk but gets clumsy. not sure what its like on the diamedia but i tend to turn the steam on really low when i do really small batches of milk (im guestimating here but something like 60mls in a 250ml jug) this is done much easier with a single hole tip.
    the KK methods for the different hole configurations work really well for me (as barry alluded to). i find if theres more than one hole in the wand, a tip in the centre of the milk works best (unless the holes are angled too parallel to the wand), and single hole tips work best for me when i put it to the side of the jug (though i do shift it a little more central to get rid of stray bubbles in the swirl during the rolling phase)

  9. #9
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Central Queensland
    Posts
    1,107
    As always, some good suggestions here. Plenty for me to work on.
    I will try a few of these ideas next time I make coffee.
    1. a lower temp on the milk
    2. different angle on the wand
    3. lower pressure on the steam (I generally give it a pretty fair charge)

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,405
    Hi Rocky
    Just to add another complication, we are at / coming up to the dreaded 3 week change of season (usually late Sept / early Nov start depending upon year) where the milk is much harder to froth - at least in NSW, Vic and WA in most past years. For the last week mine has "done the usual" in WA. FWIW, my quick & dirty fix for a single nozzle wand for WA full cream milk on a fairly wide variety of machines is:-
    1) To go up from my usual 350/400ml jug for singles to my 500/600 (accepting some wastage at this time of year as unavoidable). I usually put just under 20% in my 400ml jug and it tops out. Plenty for your intended use.
    2) Add a little more quantity of milk than usual (I find 20-25% in the bottom of the 500 works well).
    3) Then add a small amount (about 5-10% water i.e. 95%+ milk). This is worth playing with at this time, although the type of milk is paramount.
    4) Use a longer preflush than normal (idea being to hit it harder than other times of year).
    5) Without a delay, angle the wand more sharply into the top of the milk and then gun it for the first few seconds (about 40% of the normal total frothing time for your machine), Aim: get a really, really fast whirlpool going.
    6) Back it off to around 1/3 strength whilst submerging the wand. Aim: break down the larger bubbles into microfoam. It always takes longer to break the large bubbles down at this time of year.
    7) Finish it up as usual. Note: Milk thermometer is utterly essential for me at this time of year, as true microfoam only forms just before scalding, without the usual 4-6 degrees latitude.

    Main issues: Does not work on 4 hole nozzles (totally different dynamic). Still doesn't work on all milks (skims seem to fail altogether on some machines at this time). You still need to adapt & tinker it to your own machine.

    Hope this helps


    TampIt
    PS: Until you play with the above, I would not adjust the temp. Lower pressure after the "hit" sometimes helps by allowing more time to break down the bubbles. Also, are you sure your machine is pristine? This time of year is totally unforgiving on "wand crud".

  11. #11
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,948
    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Hi Rocky
    Just to add another complication, we are at / coming up to the dreaded 3 week change of season (usually late Sept / early Nov start depending upon year) where the milk is much harder to froth - at least in NSW, Vic and WA in most past years. For the last week mine has "done the usual" in WA.
    Same in SA Tampit, bit like the grand final, an annual event.

    It kind of sneaks up on you, you attempt to froth a jug of milk, not much happens, then you suddenly realize, another 12 months has flown by.

    As you say, it's a temporary thing, a few weeks and all will be well again.
    TampIt likes this.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    Powdered milk... same old, same old... all year round...

    Did discover this AM that I need to spend a few seconds more in the green zone - timing it so I am at the half way point in the zone instead of just entering it means much better foam at the end of the pour for trying out art stuff. My 'zone' is from just above 65 to 75, and I calibrated it with a medical thermo - either that one is slightly out in temp (& you'd think an electronic medical one would have to be fairly accurate or risk wrongful death suits) or my milk wants to be right on the 72º before being ready.

  13. #13
    Senior Member smokey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    311
    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Powdered milk... same old, same old... all year round...

    Did discover this AM that I need to spend a few seconds more in the green zone - timing it so I am at the half way point in the zone instead of just entering it means much better foam at the end of the pour for trying out art stuff. My 'zone' is from just above 65 to 75, and I calibrated it with a medical thermo - either that one is slightly out in temp (& you'd think an electronic medical one would have to be fairly accurate or risk wrongful death suits) or my milk wants to be right on the 72º before being ready.
    I had a laugh, powdered milk is on the menu, will let you know how it goes this weekend, might be a useful training tool too...

  14. #14
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    *grins* Well at least it is consistent so removes a variable from the process.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Powdered milk... same old, same old... all year round...

    Did discover this AM that I need to spend a few seconds more in the green zone - timing it so I am at the half way point in the zone instead of just entering it means much better foam at the end of the pour for trying out art stuff. My 'zone' is from just above 65 to 75, and I calibrated it with a medical thermo - either that one is slightly out in temp (& you'd think an electronic medical one would have to be fairly accurate or risk wrongful death suits) or my milk wants to be right on the 72º before being ready.
    Hi Journeyman

    Two things:
    1) Why I stopped using powdered milk years ago: The famous (multinational) one with the green label on the tin varied massively from batch to batch. Apart from inconsistent frothing, even the breakdown temperatures varied by three or four degrees. Made me wonder what they did to their cows. Dehydrated them? I am tempted to check the current status quo.

    2) It is easy to recalibrate your gear by going to a good reference (i.e engineering company or doctor, or even using temperature probes etc. etc). Probably not needed, you will probably find it is actually due to 1) above and your thermometer is fine.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Central Queensland
    Posts
    1,107
    As per previous advice, I tried a bit of angle on the 600ml jug this morning and also reduced the steam pressure to about half what I would normally use. This produced the desired quality of microfoam but still achieved 70degrees without the milk frothing over the top of the jug. It was right AT the top but not over the edge, so there is a win straight away.

  17. #17
    Senior Member smokey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    311
    Nice one Rocky, I am finding that everything I am learning takes a lot of practice, my pours look fantastic coing out of the naked portafilter, but I still need to get the grind and milk sorted out.

    Journeyman and TampIt, I did the powdered milk steaming and, hands down, its crap! No stretching at all. Back to the real milk for more practice.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    Strange. Mine works great. I'll try a video of it tomorrow. I am still puzzled how a normal amount of milk would ever get to the top of the jug.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    As per previous advice, I tried a bit of angle on the 600ml jug this morning and also reduced the steam pressure to about half what I would normally use. This produced the desired quality of microfoam but still achieved 70degrees without the milk frothing over the top of the jug. It was right AT the top but not over the edge, so there is a win straight away.
    Hi Rocky.

    Great Stuff. Progress is always a good thing...

    I reread your whole thread, and realised that you are getting a lot less "stretch" in the milk compared to what I would expect. Having not used any milk in Qld (Proserpine & Mackay) since '73, I have no idea whether that is normal over there or whether you are not getting "proper" microfoam (whatever that is...). If you do microfoam correctly, it should not have foam on the top / milk at the bottom. By definition, any milk that is not frothed is costing you via final volume.

    Now that WA milk is back to normal I did some testing for you. I actually tried 180ml (measured) today in one of my 800ml jugs: it overflowed really, really badly before it fully turned into microfoam (didn't expect that!). If I had started with my one litre jug instead, I could pour it out cleanly creating way more foam than you need (picturing milk running all over the place after filling both your cups & my 500ml jug to the brim). I clearly remember a similar stretch ratio with country Vic (Mildura, Morwell & Sale) and most NSW (except Dairy Farmers) milks. A lot of online sites and my own coffee books state that a 200% to 300% increase in milk volume is common. Considering the USA milk doesn't stretch much (it is also only loosely related to cows, probably closer to plastic), even that was doing well over 200% for me whilst I was over there (except a Wild Oats "dairy farmers local one" in Colorado which was brilliant). Your figures indicate maybe a 50% increase is all you are getting. HiLo tends to stretch even more than full cream. The last time I tried a skim milk, it was also giving me way over double the start volume in microfoam.

    A quick test of your microfoam: Firstly, you must ensure your stainless jug is pristine or it will not froth or pour correctly. Froth the milk. Pour the milk out immediately after turning the steam off. There should be a silky, velvety sheen to the milk if you hold it so it reflects against a light source. It will be quite a bit sweeter to the taste than the "unfoamed milk" you started with, even if you warm it up to the same temperature in a mw or saucepan (gently!). It should pour more slowly than normal milk but come very cleanly out of the jug. No clinging to the sides. It almost tries to escape, except it is more viscous so it cannot "run away quickly". Any residual milk which will not pour out of the jug should be minuscule. If you need to spoon it out, it is wrong. If you really think you have it perfect, put any fine grained pattern into a latte and leave it for an hour or so. If the microfoam is correct, the “white” pattern will be unchanged. If the brown is also unchanged, you got the coffee spot on as well. Then feel free to kick yourself for not drinking it whilst simultaneously having the warm glow of satisfaction that you really nailed it to best barista standard...

    If you cannot get it somewhere near that level using your current milk, I suggest you try a few different HiLo's (the easiest) and experiment a little more... When you get it right, the increase in milk sweetness goes a long way to balance out minor coffee snafu's.

    Have fun...

    TampIt
    PS: You mentioned Woolies home brand milk. I noticed in the US that permeate %age seems to be inversely linked to microfoam quantity & quality. It made me recall my US conclusions, so I googled it today for Oz. "Waste product becomes cream of the crop in milk wars" from the Age in April 2012 has "Internal documents from Australia's biggest supplier, National Foods - which makes Pura, Big M, Dairy Farmers and supplies both Woolworths and Coles brand milk - reveal that its milk now contains up to 16.43 per cent permeate, shaving almost 16 per cent off the cost of production."

    Something else to consider. Also possibly / probably why I could never get anything drinkable out of Dairy Farmers whilst in NSW or Pura / Masters over here in WA. They simply refused to get sweeter even when I beat them into submission and managed to get good microfoam texture. All milks are not equal...

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Strange. Mine works great. I'll try a video of it tomorrow. I am still puzzled how a normal amount of milk would ever get to the top of the jug.
    Hi Journeyman

    I just posted my longer post while you posted this one.

    If you are not getting triple+ the initial volume, a good pour (no clinging) and a serious bump up in sweetness, then it is not acceptable for a quality latte. Due to some of your other milk comments, I will have a go with a couple of powdered milks in the next week or four and see what it is like. It would be nice to have some "emergency spare" milk in the cupboard, and UHT is certainly not a contender... (reminds my of the "milk" they sell in the US unless you go to special places).

    All the best

    TampIt

  21. #21
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    OK, I am puzzled. In the barista course I did, as well as the pub stint and on my home machine, I make pretty good lattés in both taste and appearance, by following the rule that you stretch the milk to the amount of 'head' you want and then lower the tip in to keep heating and NOT increasing the volume much.

    So, for me, a latté is stretched to a bit under half the original volume above what you began with. So, for 2 lattés in typical latté glasses, in a 600ml jug, it's roughly fill to the bottom of the spout indentation, stretch it to (allowing for the angle of the jug) a little under half as much again in the jug (for my single hole tip, that's about halfway up the side of the jug with it tilted away from me) and then sink the nozzle until almost at temp.

    At that point, I get slow pour foam, clean sides on my jug, and approx 2cm froth on top of a rich tan milk coffee.

    To do capps, (not required much at home) the stretch is to about double the original volume, so angle of jug towards the end of the stretch is important. But I have never even come close to overflowing either the 600ml or the 1L jug and I have done 3 x latté mugs from the 1L.

    I can't imagine how 180ml in a 600ml jug could overflow the jug and make anything except a 70's style capp - a capp with what my wife calls 'porn froth'. - (I told her the comment from the barista course about the frothy (overheated) foam they used to give in the 70's until we developed some sophistication and made better microfoam - she immediately dubbed it porn froth)

    Triple the original volume seems like a rather large over-extension of the milk. My visitors would seem to be on my side about the milk (& the coffee, but that's a different thread) as they state they would rather visit me than meet in cafés for coffee.

    So either I am a milk genius, which is patently not the case, or there is a mismatch here between what people are describing and what winds up in the cup. I will say that in 10+ months of making my coffee at home as well as numerous hot chocs and chai lattés, I would not have tipped more than 500ml down the sink, and the 500 is based on me doubting anyone would accept it is probably under 200ml in that time - I seem to have a knack for judging the milk, or perhaps for stretching to fit the requirements.

    Could that be the problem? Others stretch to 2+ times the original volume but then throw out half of that when they have filled the cup?

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    OK, I am puzzled. In the barista course I did, as well as the pub stint and on my home machine, I make pretty good lattés in both taste and appearance, by following the rule that you stretch the milk to the amount of 'head' you want and then lower the tip in to keep heating and NOT increasing the volume much.

    So, for me, a latté is stretched to a bit under half the original volume above what you began with. So, for 2 lattés in typical latté glasses, in a 600ml jug, it's roughly fill to the bottom of the spout indentation, stretch it to (allowing for the angle of the jug) a little under half as much again in the jug (for my single hole tip, that's about halfway up the side of the jug with it tilted away from me) and then sink the nozzle until almost at temp.

    At that point, I get slow pour foam, clean sides on my jug, and approx 2cm froth on top of a rich tan milk coffee.

    To do capps, (not required much at home) the stretch is to about double the original volume, so angle of jug towards the end of the stretch is important. But I have never even come close to overflowing either the 600ml or the 1L jug and I have done 3 x latté mugs from the 1L.

    I can't imagine how 180ml in a 600ml jug could overflow the jug and make anything except a 70's style capp - a capp with what my wife calls 'porn froth'. - (I told her the comment from the barista course about the frothy (overheated) foam they used to give in the 70's until we developed some sophistication and made better microfoam - she immediately dubbed it porn froth)

    Triple the original volume seems like a rather large over-extension of the milk. My visitors would seem to be on my side about the milk (& the coffee, but that's a different thread) as they state they would rather visit me than meet in cafés for coffee.

    So either I am a milk genius, which is patently not the case, or there is a mismatch here between what people are describing and what winds up in the cup. I will say that in 10+ months of making my coffee at home as well as numerous hot chocs and chai lattés, I would not have tipped more than 500ml down the sink, and the 500 is based on me doubting anyone would accept it is probably under 200ml in that time - I seem to have a knack for judging the milk, or perhaps for stretching to fit the requirements.

    Could that be the problem? Others stretch to 2+ times the original volume but then throw out half of that when they have filled the cup?
    Hi Journeyman

    It all depends on the milk. I go for the correct texture rather than worry about the volume it generates. IF I want to go a little more creamy, I do it closer to your way as it is a richer flavour. It all depends on what I am trying to do with that particular coffee drink. As long as the milk does not overpower the coffee (and vice versa sometimes) and the texture is correct it is fine. Sounds like you have it right with your powdered milk, even though smokey could not do it straight off. FWIW, I probably couldn't do it straight off either, which is why I am not going to go near the powdered stuff until I have the time to tinker.

    Another issue: "correct & stable microfoam" has quite a wide range of viscosity varying from "more than a little gloopy" to "if I hold the damn jug here long enough it WILL reach the coffee today". Even my version of gloopy is not your delightful "porn froth" (gotta love that one!).

    For darker & stronger roasts, I tend to stretch the milk less or use more milk (i.e. a larger mug / glass). I often use different basket sizes (one reason I have two complete sets of VST's). Occasionally I even add some hot water to dilute the coffee a little during the milk pour (esp. when I was dialing in the naked / 15g VST with a dark roast: it was at least twice as strong as I wanted and I felt like a larger drink that day anyway). If you are careful you don't trash either the crema or the froth.

    One thing I love about coffee is that you can only be sure about your own / encountered machines (esp. grinders) using your water, milk & roasts. Outside that, you can only give a range and ask people to experiment with their gear.

    I think I mentioned the diabolical "todays medium Colombian roast for immediate use" in a post to you. That had so little flavour that if pushed I would have resorted to using my 22g VST and adjusting the whole process to try to get something like flavour out of it. As I tested it again on "post roast day 5" with my 20g VST and still did not like what little flavour it had, I just asked my normal roasting guy what he thought of it and left it with his bin. Both of us doubt it is Colombian for a starter (more like a really poor Peruvian).

    I use my 7g VST on my normal roaster's light Colombian and it is always verging on too strong. I often stretch the milk less with that combo, hence the "meal in a cup" comments because it is so rich and also quite viscous. Just one small example as to what CS'rs have to contend with.

    Makes it worthwhile when you can sit back and think "damn that is good...".

    Have fun experimenting (I will when I get to try powdered milk again)

    Cheers

    TampIt.

  23. #23
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,769
    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    PS: You mentioned Woolies home brand milk. I noticed in the US that permeate %age seems to be inversely linked to microfoam quantity & quality. It made me recall my US conclusions, so I googled it today for Oz. "Waste product becomes cream of the crop in milk wars" from the Age in April 2012 has "Internal documents from Australia's biggest supplier, National Foods - which makes Pura, Big M, Dairy Farmers and supplies both Woolworths and Coles brand milk - reveal that its milk now contains up to 16.43 per cent permeate, shaving almost 16 per cent off the cost of production."

    Something else to consider. Also possibly / probably why I could never get anything drinkable out of Dairy Farmers whilst in NSW or Pura / Masters over here in WA. They simply refused to get sweeter even when I beat them into submission and managed to get good microfoam texture. All milks are not equal...
    There is an in depth discussion of the permeate issue here: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/milk-froth...-pressure.html


    Java "From the land of milk and...well....something" phile
    TampIt likes this.
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  24. #24
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    This is my 1L jug, with almost the perfect amount of cold milk to make 2 x mugs of latté filled to a dome top.
    Attachment 4715

    I did take a photo of the finished product but managed to blur it too much so you can't even tell if the milk if foamed or not. I only realised after I poured the coffees. I'll get similar shots this arvo when I make another.

    But the milk was almost exactly half way between what you see here and the top of the jug. If you look close, just above the lower milk drop on the right of the spout you can see a small mark - that's pretty much the level the foamed milk was at. The jug was clean down to about a few cms above the bottom after I poured. At no point did the milk look like it might go over the top and it was on about a 30º angle (from the vertical) for most of the process.

    So that might help make it clear why I am a bit puzzled as to how 180ml might almost overflow a 600ml jug?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    This is my 1L jug, with almost the perfect amount of cold milk to make 2 x mugs of latté filled to a dome top.
    Attachment 4715

    I did take a photo of the finished product but managed to blur it too much so you can't even tell if the milk if foamed or not. I only realised after I poured the coffees. I'll get similar shots this arvo when I make another.

    But the milk was almost exactly half way between what you see here and the top of the jug. If you look close, just above the lower milk drop on the right of the spout you can see a small mark - that's pretty much the level the foamed milk was at. The jug was clean down to about a few cms above the bottom after I poured. At no point did the milk look like it might go over the top and it was on about a 30º angle (from the vertical) for most of the process.

    So that might help make it clear why I am a bit puzzled as to how 180ml might almost overflow a 600ml jug?
    FWIW, that is a lot less expansion than I would normally do with any "full cream milk" I have encountered. However, every milk is different & I still feel permeate is a wild card in terms of texture, volume & sweetness. If the texture is good and flavour has picked up the extra sweetness it must be somewhere in the range of "correct". Mind you, your use of natvia tends to indicate that the sweetness is absent. Try doing the "heat in mw or saucepan to the same temp" and see if the sweetness is different. If it isn't, there is more to be gained plus a really nice surprise around the corner.

    Also, I haven't looked up the Java "how does he think of these things" phile link on CS permeates yet. Definitely worth a look.

    Have fun


    TampIt

  26. #26
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    A couple of times I've forgotten the natvia and gotten halfway through the coffee before I realised. Just checked the bag - says, Milk Powder and emulsifier (322 from Soy which is Lecithins) = not quite as pure as I thought.

    Am I correct in thinking the expansion or stretching is caused by the micro-bubbles entering the milk? If so, I guess my question from earlier about how much milk gets poured out after making the coffee is relevant. With few exceptions I empty my jug in making the coffee and then having nothing to tip out. Stretching more than I did this morning would make a capp or leave me with milk to pour out.

    Note I am not being argumentative here, I am really trying to understand why so much extra expansion of the milk is being done by, apparently, so many people.
    Beanatic likes this.

  27. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    349
    I get the best results filling to bottom of the spout. Higher, and you can get milk which over-fills your jug after stretching, making it harder to keep it incorporated (you end up with all this foam on top). Less than that, and it's just harder to get a whirlpool going and results in too many large bubbles. I definitely need to go to a 1L jug for when familiy comes over and I'm making 4 or more coffees.

  28. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    A couple of times I've forgotten the natvia and gotten halfway through the coffee before I realised. Just checked the bag - says, Milk Powder and emulsifier (322 from Soy which is Lecithins) = not quite as pure as I thought.

    Am I correct in thinking the expansion or stretching is caused by the micro-bubbles entering the milk? If so, I guess my question from earlier about how much milk gets poured out after making the coffee is relevant. With few exceptions I empty my jug in making the coffee and then having nothing to tip out. Stretching more than I did this morning would make a capp or leave me with milk to pour out.

    Note I am not being argumentative here, I am really trying to understand why so much extra expansion of the milk is being done by, apparently, so many people.
    Hi Journeyman

    I have no idea what lecithin does to milk, however I would suggest trying a different "non any extra anything" and see what happens. Perhaps it kills the expansion?

    You are correct AFAIAC in the micro bubbles adding to the volume. My experience with a number of different milks over the years would indicate that different cow milks have quite different "zones of correctness". As long as you get the texture (silky, satiny, velvety are all commonly used to describe it) and you pick up extra sweetness you are "in the zone". Some cow milks will not get sweeter, so I avoid them. In every case I tried to figure it out, they have been processed and / or additived to death . I have too little experience in non-cow alternatives (despite having frothed a number of quite exotic milks) to provide more than a faint impression that most fresh animal milks pick up the extra sweetness, whereas the over-processed or plant ones don't. Oh, and trying the usual WA supermarket rice milk is interesting: tastes like a sugar bowl with a little white rice added. Horrible unless you get off on sugar type sweetness.

    The other issue: My experience in the US was fairly conclusive (short of a full blown scientific study): add 5+%permeate, lose the extra sweetness. The Javaphile link to addition to CS permeates thread is worth exploring: esp. the "checkout video" - I have no idea what was in that jug, however every permeate I have ever seen has a greenish yellow tinge, theirs was translucent white... Strange.

    If you were to successfully stretch the milk further, clearly you would need to adjust something (less in the jug, smaller jug etc.).

    Darkfalz is correct in saying that a one litre jug easily makes latte for four. My one litre jug (probably the same brand as his) expands at about the same rate as he described. A bit of basic maths: standard latte glass: 250ml (to the brim). Normal usable capacity: (say) 220ml. Espresso: (say) 30ml for a single shot. 4 * 190 is just under 800ml, plenty in a well frothed 1 litre to do the job. My one litre's spout is almost exactly 300ml from the bottom of the jug, and I usually fill it to about 6 to 7mm below the spout when I use it for milk. It usually is close to topping out / overflowing every time I do it. When I do the "pour for four" lattes, I can often fill all four to near the brim.

    TampIt

  29. #29
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Central Queensland
    Posts
    1,107
    Journeyman you have really got me thinking as a result of querying the overflow in the jug.
    I went back and measured everything to ensure I am talking the correct quantities.
    Here are some slightly revised specifics.

    The amount of milk in the 600 ml jug is between 175 & 180 ml.
    The Terra Keramik cup has a full capacity of 160ml with room for a foam cap.
    The Duralex Piccolo glass has a full capacity of 100 ml with room for a foam cap.
    Bearing in mind that there is already a 30ml shot in both that leaves room for 130ml & 70ml of milk respectively.
    I generally use all of the milk but sometimes there might be about 30ml left, so 175ml becomes about 230ml.

    Whilst the foam overflows the jug by the time it reaches temperature, it quickly 'settles' after removal of the wand, and reveals the milk has stretched to only about 250ml plus a few cm of foam on top.
    So I think I am saying that the only reason it overflows is because of the foam that expands rapidly at the end of the process.
    Maybe I have the end of the wand too close to the top of the milk? It was the way I was taught at my Barista Course but that was on a commercial machine.
    All this is suggesting I need to rethink my steaming technique to avoid the explosion of foam at the end of the steaming.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    I'm no expert but I think continuing to stretch as the temp reaches optimum is not a good thing as far as getting microfoam. A couple of times I have been trying to do other things while making the milk and if the wand tip breaks surface when temp is high I get bubbles rather than microfoam.

    I made my coffee as usual this morning but used a glass instead of my mug - this is what I got for my latté, and I used all but a dribble of the milk. The level in the 600ml jug before starting was about 1cm under the bottom of the spout.
    latté1.jpg

  31. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    280
    Journeyman put me on to Aldi's powdered milk and I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I like it better than any other milk I've used.

    It textures and marks well and even at the recommended 1:2 ratio of powder to water, seems to make a far creamier latte. If I had one of those ice-cream machines, I think I'd try making coffee icecream from it (then I can put more chocolate covered nuts in--Connoisieur's Cafe Grande just don't put enough in!)

    Thanks Journeyman!
    Last edited by simonko; 6th November 2013 at 09:19 PM.
    Journeyman, Ol_Grumpy and smokey like this.

  32. #32
    Senior Member smokey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    311
    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    Journeyman put me on to Aldi's powdered milk and I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I like it better than any other milk I've used.

    It textures and marks well and even at the recommended 1:2 ratio of powder to water, seems to make a far creamier latte. If I had one of those ice-cream machines, I think I'd try making icecream from it.

    Thanks Journeyman!
    simonko, you just inspired me to give it another try, my last attempt on the weekend was abysmal.

  33. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post

    Whilst the foam overflows the jug by the time it reaches temperature, it quickly 'settles' after removal of the wand, and reveals the milk has stretched to only about 250ml plus a few cm of foam on top.
    So I think I am saying that the only reason it overflows is because of the foam that expands rapidly at the end of the process.
    Maybe I have the end of the wand too close to the top of the milk? It was the way I was taught at my Barista Course but that was on a commercial machine.
    All this is suggesting I need to rethink my steaming technique to avoid the explosion of foam at the end of the steaming.
    Hi Rocky

    I just read this piece of your thread.

    If you froth it into true microfoam, there is no extra "few cm" or even few mm foam on the top. It actually becomes a homogenous texture throughout. Good news: Much more to be gained once you sort it all out.

    I wrote a how to in
    Sunbeam EM6910 Screaming / Too Much Air In Milk post #9.


    for single nozzle wands. Does not apply to 2, 3 or 4 nozzle wands. Perhaps the logic is similar (i.e. surf near top to aerate it to desired stretch then bury the wand to break down all the large bubbles into microfoam).

    One of your earlier posts had "The Diadema steams like a steam train and when the foam comes up it does so in a hurry.". I have had more trouble with "baristas" scalding milk in front of me using too much boiler pressure than almost any other factor. 4 bar is plenty for frothing milk, 6 is almost certainly wrecked. There is even a you tube video of a guy using a GS3 and completely destroying his milk that way. Your later comment about lowering the pressure and making progress is also probably right on the money.

    Anyway, the three weeks of havoc has ended in WA, so consistent milk is available again. You will probably be able to sort it out easily in Qld now.

    TampIt

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Toowoomba QLD
    Posts
    417
    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Hi Rocky

    4 bar is plenty for frothing milk, 6 is almost certainly wrecked.

    TampIt
    I doubt very much any machines have steam boiler pressures of 4 or 6 bars. More usual is 1 - 1.5 bar.

    Pete

  35. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete39 View Post
    I doubt very much any machines have steam boiler pressures of 4 or 6 bars. More usual is 1 - 1.5 bar.

    Pete
    Oops, my bad, too late at night. I confused steam boiler pressure with wand delivery pressure.

    I haven't actually measured the steam wand pressure in a machine (ever), however I do know (for example) that the Sunbeam 6910 (not a steaming "demon") is designed to deliver 4 bar pressure at the wand nozzle. Considering a number of machines have a lot more steaming mojo, scalded milk is more of an issue these days than lack of pressure. That was my real point.

    My shaky defence apart from lack of sleep is the "coffee" I bought from a cafe yesterday. The guy blasted & scalded the milk in front of me, the memory of paying $4.50 for a sink job must have been still smarting.

    Thanks for the correction.

    TampIt

  36. #36
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Central Queensland
    Posts
    1,107
    I've always been concerned about getting sufficient foam for a good cm or so on top of my milk coffees.
    At the Barista Course we were told the foam had to hang upside-down on the spoon or it wasn't right.
    I would say that I have never produced "silky" milk.
    The steaming process always sounds fine - no screaming steam wand - but the rapid rise of foam at the end maybe suggests lower pressure and keep the wand in the milk.
    It's starting to look like the steaming technique that I thought was fine is actually crap.
    Certainly I would rather have "silky" milk than foam that hangs upside-down on my spoon.
    I think it's back to the drawing board for me.

  37. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    Journeyman put me on to Aldi's powdered milk and I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I like it better than any other milk I've used.

    It textures and marks well and even at the recommended 1:2 ratio of powder to water, seems to make a far creamier latte. If I had one of those ice-cream machines, I think I'd try making coffee icecream from it (then I can put more chocolate covered nuts in--Connoisieur's Cafe Grande just don't put enough in!)

    Thanks Journeyman!
    "then I can put more chocolate covered nuts in--Connoisieur's Cafe Grande just don't put enough in! "

    Probably the best OT comment I have seen in CS, mind you that is coming from a hopelessly biased fellow addict.

    I've got to start playing with the Aldi's...

    TampIt

  38. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Toowoomba QLD
    Posts
    417
    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post

    I haven't actually measured the steam wand pressure in a machine (ever), however I do know (for example) that the Sunbeam 6910 (not a steaming "demon") is designed to deliver 4 bar pressure at the wand nozzle.

    TampIt
    I don't think the steam wand pressure is 4 bar. The EM6910 advertises a 4 bar pump on the steam side, but it also advertises a 15 bar pump on the brew side, but brew pressures (in my experience) are around 9 bar, at most 12 bar on some machines. The advertised rating of the pumps are actually maximums and the pressure delivered depends on flow rate. At normal brew flows, the "15 bar" pump drops to around 9 bar. In my experience, the steam pressure delivered by a 6910 is less than my boiler machine that runs at about 1.2 bar when steaming. Do you think the wand pressure would be more than the boiler pressure in a boiler machine, and if so, can you explain how?

    Pete
    MrJack likes this.

  39. #39
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,948
    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    Journeyman put me on to Aldi's powdered milk and I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I like it better than any other milk I've used.
    Cant believe I read this in Coffee Snobs as far as I'm concerned fresh is always best, guess there's no accounting for personal taste.

  40. #40
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I've always been concerned about getting sufficient foam for a good cm or so on top of my milk coffees.
    At the Barista Course we were told the foam had to hang upside-down on the spoon or it wasn't right.
    I would say that I have never produced "silky" milk.
    The steaming process always sounds fine - no screaming steam wand - but the rapid rise of foam at the end maybe suggests lower pressure and keep the wand in the milk.
    It's starting to look like the steaming technique that I thought was fine is actually crap.
    Certainly I would rather have "silky" milk than foam that hangs upside-down on my spoon.
    I think it's back to the drawing board for me.
    I think you're describing porn froth Rocky. bow-chicka-bow-wow...

    @yelta - actually it was taste that took me to the powdered milk. The crappy taste of that stuff people have been drinking that comes in plastic containers. I'm not sure how people aren't tasting the off taste - maybe they just don't have decent palates? That crappy milk taste is also why I started drinking macchiatos - all that plastic in a cup or glass had me not liking coffee. Now that I use powdered milk, I have no problems with lattés.

    As for you thinking that garbage is fresh...? Say what? Really? You know they process it like that so they can deliver it old right? If they didn't kill everything in there it would hit the shelves all lumpy. Milk goes off in a couple of days, maybe a week tops if you put it straight in the fridge. Take a look at the use-by dates on what you buy. Then add in the time to dairy, processing, time to shop, stocking etc. Fresh?

    If we are what we drink (eat) I guess I'm OK with being a person of good taste rather than a child of plastic. As you say, there's no accounting for personal taste. And while you lot are content to pollute your taste buds with plastic, I guess we will never get back to fresk milk.

  41. #41
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,948
    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    maybe they just don't have decent palates?
    Morning JM, have you ever considered you may well be the one with the dodgy palate? regardless, I'll respect your opinion and not go down the road of ridicule and derision.
    You Alexander, Simonko, and Smokey should contemplate an exclusive powdered milk users forum.
    Last edited by Yelta; 8th November 2013 at 12:02 PM.

  42. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Central Coast NSW
    Posts
    684
    How do you think powdered milk is made??

    Its filtered, pasteurized and homogenized like most other milk prior to being concentrated under vacuum then atomized using high pressure / hot air....much the same way powdered malt is made and some instant coffees. When in bulk, these products are most likely stored in plastic lined bags.

    You can buy 1L cartons (no plastic) of organic, pasteurized but un-homogenized milk at the supermarket....yes that's less fresh / treated than atomized powder. The mind boggles

  43. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete39 View Post
    I don't think the steam wand pressure is 4 bar. The EM6910 advertises a 4 bar pump on the steam side, but it also advertises a 15 bar pump on the brew side, but brew pressures (in my experience) are around 9 bar, at most 12 bar on some machines.
    Pete
    The pressure drop through the thermoblock/thermocoil (whatever it is) to the wand is likely going to be much higher than the pressure drop from boiler to wand. So it's plausible that even if the pump does discharge at 4barg you could have a lower pressure/velocity at the wand (than seen on the boiler machine). Flowrate of steam will also be an important point of difference.

    In any case, the relationship of steam pressure to temperature is different between a thermoblock and boiler machine, so it may not be a valid comparison.

  44. #44
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Central Queensland
    Posts
    1,107
    I must admit I was gobsmacked when people started talking about powdered milk.
    It is something I never would have considered.
    The last time I saw or tasted it was as a kid. I never liked it then.
    It sounds like it may have improved a bit or maybe as a kid we used to mix too strong a ratio.
    I would give it a go but it already takes me half an hour to make coffee and I don't need any additional sub-tasks.
    The full-cream milk I am using provides a major improvement on the low-fat I was using previously and all I need to do now is re-learn steaming.

  45. #45
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,948
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve82 View Post
    You can buy 1L cartons (no plastic)
    I think you will find the cartons have a plastic lining Steve.

  46. #46
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,948
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    The full-cream milk I am using provides a major improvement on the low-fat I was using previously and all I need to do now is re-learn steaming.
    G'Day Rocky, ain't it amazing, I find low fat milk gives a much better result than full cream, guess it comes down to different machines and techniques.

  47. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    280
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Cant believe I read this in Coffee Snobs as far as I'm concerned fresh is always best, guess there's no accounting for personal taste.
    I might influenced from a recent move where I can't easily get raw milk anymore (or for under $9 per 2L) and just find even the non low-fat supermarket stuff feels like it's been watered down. The powdered milk I can at least get that creaminess back up.

    The powdered milk has definitely improved from the last time I tried it 20 years ago--or maybe it's just the Aldi one?

  48. #48
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,948
    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    I might influenced from a recent move where I can't easily get raw milk anymore (or for under $9 per 2L) and just find even the non low-fat supermarket stuff feels like it's been watered down. The powdered milk I can at least get that creaminess back up.

    The powdered milk has definitely improved from the last time I tried it 20 years ago--or maybe it's just the Aldi one?
    Just added your name to the list in post 41 this thread Simonko.

  49. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    280
    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Milk goes off in a couple of days, maybe a week tops if you put it straight in the fridge. Take a look at the use-by dates on what you buy. Then add in the time to dairy, processing, time to shop, stocking etc. Fresh?
    Actually raw milk doesn't go off--it just sours (or 'clabbers'). It is common around the world to leave raw milk on the counter for a few days and either drink it straight or use it in recipes. Not my taste but my wife would kill for it.

    Do that with supermarket milk and it'd kill my wife.

  50. #50
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    280
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Just added your name to the list in post 41 this thread Simonko.
    I was pretty pissed you missed me.



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •