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Thread: Microwaved v frothed milk

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    Microwaved v frothed milk

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I know this question will make a lot of you choke, but its serious...

    I make all my lattes with microwaved milk, not frothed. Ive tried frothing, and besides it being very inconvenient, time-consuming, and messy, I didnt actually like the taste as much. I like milk for its taste and thick consistency. I found when I frothed it, the bubbles detracted from the consistency. For some reason, I feel they also stop me appreciating the crema as much as I do otherwise.

    Every time Ive tried frothing, Ive tried to keep the bubbles as fine as possible. Im not sure if they constitute the fabled micro-froth, though. Im yet to research that!

    So my questions are:
    1) Is frothing supposed to be better?
    2) If so, why?

    Thanks.

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    Senior Member greenman's Avatar
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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Proper microfoam should be smooth and creamy not bubbly. In the old days I used to microwave my milk and then add some blend 43 and it was hot milk with instant coffee which I enjoyed with my brekky. Now it is a double ristretto with textured milk and the occasional piece of latte art depending on the milk consistency on the day.
    Read some threads on CS about texturing milk and practice, once you master the technique it will be worth the effort.
    What sort of machine are you using?

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    The bubbles should be so fine that the milk slips down like velvet..............only microfoam can do this.

    When you hit the right temp [65C], a big waft of sweet nuttiness will fill your nostrils....only microfoam can do this.

    1. Yes
    2. What I just said




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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Thanks guys. Im using a Spidem Trevi Plus. Its an entry-level machine that cost about $400. But its better than the $300ish Brevilles. Ive had three of those!

    I practised frothing - sorry... texturing - the milk this morning. Tried about 8 times. Im pretty sure I was doing a decent job. Very small bubbles. Nice consistency, etc. Same as Ive achieved in the past.

    The other thing is that I dont like the milk too hot. I like to be able to take a full mouthful with my first mouthful. (I dont actually do that; its just a guide - if I couldnt, the milks too hot.) Not sure if I could at 65 degrees. Im a bit of a pansy when it comes to hot food and drink!

    In any case, the point is moot. After practising this morning, my frother died! Not sure what happened, but it just stopped working. Ill have another look at it later today.

    For now, Ill continue trying to make the perfect cup with the microwaved milk. Its what Ive found I like anyway. Cant say with 100% certainty that Ive compared it with good, micro, textured milk, but I know I made a very nice coffee this morning with some CS Wow Espresso pre-ground.

    At the moment, I think my no1 priority is to find the right ratio of milk to coffee. Im finding that variation is changing the taste considerably. Im outputting about 30ml of very rich, creamy coffee in 30 seconds. From a completely full double-shot basket. (Any less than completely full and 30ml comes through in about 10 seconds.) Ive heard the 33% coffee: 33% milk: 33% froth rule. But I dont like froth. So Ive been trying 33% coffee: 66% milk. Think I need a greater proportion of milk. Still 30ml coffee, but just more volume of milk.

    Then I need to decide if I have exactly the right beans. I think I may try the CS Sampler, next time.

    But I think thats a discussion for another thread...

    Cheers.

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    say no to "froth". propely steamed milk will present you with microfoam which will be a jug of 1 precise, consistent texture - no layers, no airy foam on top and hot milk at the bottom, just velvety, white gold.

    as for proportions, use the same size cup and if youre pulling consistently volumed shots, then fill to the same point and you should be replicating an identical taste everyday. of course youre fighting other variables, but you want to narrow them down where you can.

    and that is what this coffee art is all about: consistency and repeatability. you have dozens of variables, some controllable (cup size, quantities, type of bean, grind size, temperatures etc) and some not (humidity, variability of beans, milk quality etc) and what you need to be doing in order to produce that perfect cup, is 1 by 1 controlling each of these elements til you can make exactly the same coffee to within a few percent every day.

    good luck.

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    divinewrite, my guess is that you havent achieved microfoam yet. When you do, youll know about it. It will look like velvet with no visible bubbles & will poor like cream. Most importantly, it will be very sweet & wont need sugar. Microwaved milk doesnt come close. Find a good cafe thats known for its latte art & try their coffee. Ill never forget the first latte that Andrew from the Mailing room (Melbourne) made me. I was blown away & I reckon Ill spend the next five years trying to get mine that good!

    Evan.

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    As for temperature, I stop when I hear pitch of the steaming milk start to drop. Its hard to explain, but when I hear it start to go "EEeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaoooww" (descending pitch), its hot enough. Much further than that and I start to get cooked milk, which does taste horrible.

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Thanks for your replies, everyone. Very helpful. I think for now, Ill have to content myself with microwaved milk. Ive spent quite a bit of time experimenting with texturing, and Ive either been unable to achieve it, or I havent been that impressed with it if I have. Unfortunately, I simply dont have enough time to keep playing around with it. Perhaps when the kids are a bit older and/or I have a better machine...

    Cheers.

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    I have been doing both lately - that is, both things to the same jug of milk.

    In order to save time on the steaming, i put a mug of milk in the microwave for, say, 50 seconds while I am pulling a shot, which gets the milk up to about 40 degrees. Then I tip this into my jug and steam it up to temp (not more than 60deg usually). While i am steaming I am also zapping the next lot of milk for the next cup.

    The milk behaves differently in the jug than it does from cold, but with a little attention it ends up OK. the good part is that when making coffee for a group you spend more time chatting and less time in front of the steaming wand.

    Anyone else out there do something similar? Or is that too heathenish?

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    I really prefer frothing the milk with coffee because i have seen it microwaved before. your results with microwaving milk are not pleasant you will get the milk skin and that can be a nuisance in itself.
    but thats just my opinion.
    also try frothing milk because if you make it right and use certain milk it can taste great. scoot froths the milk and i can hardly taste it when its mixed with coffee!

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Quote Originally Posted by Meetim link=1203483269/0#8 date=1206972960
    I have been doing both lately - that is, both things to the same jug of milk.

    In order to save time on the steaming, i put a mug of milk in the microwave for, say, 50 seconds while I am pulling a shot, which gets the milk up to about 40 degrees. Then I tip this into my jug and steam it up to temp (not more than 60deg usually). While i am steaming I am also zapping the next lot of milk for the next cup.

    The milk behaves differently in the jug than it does from cold, but with a little attention it ends up OK. the good part is that when making coffee for a group you spend more time chatting and less time in front of the steaming wand.

    Anyone else out there do something similar? Or is that too heathenish?
    Having previously owned a sunbeam espresso machine in the past I can understand why you would pre heat the milk in the micro wave before frothing, particularly multiple drinks. I would spend countless frustrating minutes at the so called steam wand producing insufficient amounts of terribly frothed milk which when coupled with consistently poorly extracted coffee complimented each other perfectly. [smiley=tongue.gif]

    True microfoam and excellent espresso are achievable with practice but not from a substandard machine, I have experienced almost every variable across the spectrum of attempted espresso shots always aspiring to the almost allusive "espresso nirvana" and the answer is that "upgradeitis" is a very necessary phenomenon and something to be seriously embraced.
    Having said that, the baby steps are also very necessary in the scheme of things, they are the building blocks on which you improve upon and the progression and growing through the various stages builds not only your experience in trying to handle difficult machines but also the appreciation of what a better machine can actually produce.

    I have got to say this one thing, when searching for that "affordable" kickass machine that we all ultimately want I would recommend a well kept secondhand commercial machine. The reason being is that they are very robust, reliable, and consistent to say the least. You should get a good one, with accessories under or around the 2 grand mark which when compared to the high end machines is fantastic value and will not leave you wanting, upgradeitis is completely satisfied, I still love mine as much, (if not more), now as ever.

    From a very passionate 2 group commercial machine nut.......... I hope this helps.... Ray.

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    My query is partly related to this topic and also asking for advice. I recently acquired Gaggia Classic and slowly getting the hang of it re pulling reasonable shots. I noticed that where I bought the Classic and when it was demonstrated to me that the plastic end on steam frother had been removed when frothing milk.
    I did the same (using 600ml jug) but I found that the stainless steel end of frother does not protrube far enough into jug to be able to adequately froth the milk . Therefore I have been frothing milk by heating milk in microwave and using battery operated frother (surprisingly good).
    I know I could change steaming wand on Classic but at present I dont want to go down that track. If I refit plastic attachment to *steaming wand I cant seem to get milk hot enough - even though I use the recommended techniques for this procedure
    Help and advice appreciated

    Gussy

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Price, not having ever owned a Gaggia Classic I cant say for sure (for this machine) but all plastic steam/frothing enhancers that i have tried will not/ can not produce decent froth yet alone microfoam. If the method you are using is currently working for you then great, however, in my opinion (having tried both ways) it will never equal true microfoam. Many people on this forum are having success with 300mL jugs (with machines that have much more steaming power) for single milk based drinks. Alot of the Classic owners on this forum have been in a similar situation to you. Alot have solved this by installing silvia wand which is able to be sourced from coffeeparts (on the left sidebar) and if you eventually feel this is the way to go for you many CSs will be able to aid you in information/experiences in installing the new part.

    Martial Monkey

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Ever seen latte art poured from milk that was microwaved?

    I HAVE! At Veneziano, Zoe Delaney microwaved some milk to the correct temperature, then put it in a french press and whipped it up....transfered the milk in to a pouring pitcher and poured latte art for me.....AMAZING!

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Sounds pretty impressive wushoes, just goes to show you can get latte art quality milk stretching using a hand beaten method. :)

    It seems we have found a new Coffee Snobs party trick :D

    Martial Monkey

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Nothing beats a milkshake machine+microwave for micro foam ;) (serious.... What I used to do when all I used was a stovetop machine...)
    Took me a very long time after getting myself an em6900 to get the same quality from that. (you need to aerate the milk while it is cold, add equal portion fresh milk, then heat) then you have the most micro microfoam you have ever seen :)

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Quote Originally Posted by Martial Monkey link=1203483269/0#14 date=1207750689
    Sounds pretty impressive wushoes, just goes to show you can get latte art quality milk stretching using a hand beaten method. :)

    It seems we have found a new Coffee Snobs party trick :D
    There are actually devices out on the market for doing this exact thing. Frothing milk for a latte or cappuccino in the microwave. A few years back I got one as a throw-in on a purchase of some old moka pot style brewers. I laughed when I saw it in the box and tossed it aside never to be used. Ill have to dig it out here one of these days and post a picture of it. As I recall from the glance I gave it, it consisted of a microwavable cup which had a cover with some kind of a whipping (blades/mesh/who knows as I didnt take it out of the box) attachment on a rod that passed through it. You nuked the milk and then whipped it up by pumping the rod just as you would if using a french press to froth.


    Java "I knew Id be digging that contraption out some day!" phile

  18. #18
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Well I guess it was the frother I described in my above post that I gave away. However all is not lost as I have a 2nd example, another throw-in on an order.

    This one is a bit different than most Ive seen (which is probably why I hung onto it when deciding which one to give away) and I think its function will be fairly obvious by looking at the pictures. :)


    Java "Here it is in its box" phile


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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Java "A side on view of the frother parts with a AA battery for size comparison" phile


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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Java "And an oblique view to better show the perforated discs" phile


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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Ive seen devices (not quite like that one) for heating and whipping milk while on a stove. It is just impressive that these machines can produce micro foam capable of latte art.

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Quote Originally Posted by pricespringer link=1203483269/0#11 date=1207724265
    My query is partly related to this topic and also asking for advice. I recently acquired Gaggia Classic and slowly getting the hang of it re pulling reasonable shots. I noticed that where I bought the Classic and when it was demonstrated to me that the plastic end on steam frother had been removed when frothing milk.
    I did the same (using 600ml jug) but I found that the stainless steel end of frother does not protrube far enough into jug to be able to adequately froth the milk . Therefore I have been frothing milk by heating milk in microwave and using battery operated frother (surprisingly good).
    I know I could change steaming wand on Classic but at present I dont want to go down that track. If I refit plastic attachment to *steaming wand I cant seem to get milk hot enough - even though I use the recommended techniques for this procedure
    Help and advice appreciated

    Gussy
    I am currently using a Gaggia Classic with a Silvia wand...which is the way to go...but before I did this modification I tried something else read here. (cant claim its my own idea ::))

    That is to remove the plastic sleeve part of the pannarello frother (which leaves the black plastic upper bush connected to the chromed steam pipe) and roll the orange O ring upwards over the plastic ridge immediately above it and then refit the sleeve assembly.

    This has the effect of sealing the air intake holes (which are towards the top of the frother assembly) and thereby allowing you to introduce air to the milk at the tip of the wand...and conversely to stop introducing air (by plunging the tip under the surface of the milk) when the stretching is complete to your satisfaction.

    The first time I tried this the results were instant (if not overwhelming)...that is, instead of the white fluff that the turbo frother usually made, I had the makings of microfoam.

    I only tried this a few times and saw some improvement each time...shortly after which I installed the Silvia wand.

    Im not sure that you would ever get the results of the proper gear but in my book, its worth a try...and is immediately reversible if youre not happy.

    Install the Silvia wand...youll be glad you did ;)

    Cheers
    Dave

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Just a follow up here re getting milk hot enough using steam wand on Gaggia Classic (I have read the posts re changing over steam wand to Silvia and will probably do so in due course)The procedure I follow is as set out in the previous posts and I produce a reasonable texture of foam but a long way from anything perfect. However my complaint is that even though I hold the milk jug until it is too hot to hold , the milk is still QUITE COOL and when added to the coffee ?.

    I am not certain why this is so.

    Therefore I have been frothing milk by heating milk in microwave and using battery operated frother (surprisingly good).

    Help and advice appreciated

    Gussy

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Hi Gussy

    Now theres a coincidence...as I read your post I am stting here enjoying a cup of great coffee with dense shiny microfoam adorning it like a crown...from my Classic ;).

    Do you have a thermometer?

    At the moment, I am stretching the milk (tip of wand on the surface of the milk) till around 40-45 degrees and then lowering the tip and heating through to around 60-65 or so degrees (making sure that the milk is spinning in a whirlpool)...the thermometer lag means that the milk is around 70 degrees...just about right.

    I have been using the Classic for around 5 years and have never had any problems with milk temperature...just the microfoam as mentioned in my earlier post - which was part remedied with the simple mod mentioned and fixed by the Silvia wand.

    Providing the machine is not malfunctioning...technique is everything (along with good milk)...I only made the mod to the wand in January so 3 months down the track, lots of reading and questions, and lots of practice and the results are starting to come through...gradually.

    If you havent got a thermometer...it would be good to get one...if you do, then its more reading (and watching on Youtube) and practising.

    Cheers
    Dave

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Thanks Dave_B

    I am not ready to buy a thermometer yet - I wll get to the Sivia Wand (I think). At this stage not even thinking of the microfoam. What I dont understand is why the milk jug after about 50 secs or so is too hot to handle but the milk seems rather on the cool side ??
    and therefore the coffee likewise.

    Thanks,

    Gussy.

  26. #26
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Gussy it doesnt make sense.
    The jug should be gaining its heat from the milk.

    Maybe your mouth is lined with asbestos.

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Just in case Thundergod is wrong ;)

    I find that the jug becomes unpleasantly hot to the touch at 40 degrees...and remember that you still have 20-25 degrees to go at that point. So while the jug may feel hot to your hands...it certainly is isnt in food terms.

    As this sensitivity to heat is subjective...you might even find that the jug becomes uncomfortable for you below 40 degrees.

    Therefore in short, after the jug becomes sensibly uncomfortable you still have a ways to go before it is right for the palate.

    How long??? Ive never really looked...but you must be wary of overheating the milk as that tastes pretty foul as well.

    For about 10 bucks you can get yourself a thermometer and remove the guess work.

    As they say at Nike...Just Do It... ;)

    Cheers,
    Dave

  28. #28
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    And...

    A jug is not a jug is not a jug.

    What type of jug are you using? There is a vast difference in materials and heat conductivity.

    Also, keep your jug in the fridge when not in use. That will make a difference too! ;)

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Regardless of what jug youre using, 99% of the milk jugs out there are made from the same material. Heat sensitivity if a subjective thing. When I teach new people to froth milk they pull their hands away at 40-45 degrees saying its far too hot....when all I feel with my asbestos hands is its still warm. You build a tolerance for these things if you do it enough...I remember when I did my first jug of milk ever.....and couldnt stand to touch it beyond 45 deg!

    A thermometer will never go astray when teaching someone new.

  30. #30
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_D link=1203483269/15#26 date=1208081899
    Just in case Thundergod is wrong ;)

    I find that the jug becomes unpleasantly hot to the touch at 40 degrees...and remember that you still have 20-25 degrees to go at that point. *So while the jug may feel hot to your hands...it certainly is isnt in food terms.

    As this sensitivity to heat is subjective...you might even find that the jug becomes uncomfortable for you below 40 degrees.

    Therefore in short, after the jug becomes sensibly uncomfortable you still have a ways to go before it is right for the palate. *

    How long??? *Ive never really looked...but you must be wary of overheating the milk as that tastes pretty foul as well.

    For about 10 bucks you can get yourself a thermometer and remove the guess work.

    As they say at Nike...Just Do It... ;)

    Cheers,
    Dave
    A very good point on the individuals sensitivity.
    I can hold a jug a lot further than 40 degrees; Id dare say close to 65.
    But then again I did work in Pizza Hut for a few years and hold the record for how long one can keep their hand in the oven. *:o
    Oh! Im also a karate black belt (training for over 30 years) and my hands (despite the office work these days) might be a little tougher than some.

    EDIT: David beat me by .....that .....much.

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Yeah...but I have really soft office hands these days... ::)

    Ill push myself to 50 degrees next time >:(

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    I bend 6 inch nails to keep em toughened.

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1203483269/30#31 date=1208088460
    I bend 6 inch nails to keep em toughened.
    Yeah,..well I bite my nails and spit em across the room. *cough*

  34. #34
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    I still think a jug is not a jug, etc.

    Am I wrong in thinking that where two jugs made of the same material, the one that is thicker would take longer for you to feel the heat on the outer surface? If so, the liquid inside would also be hotter than in a thinner walled jug?

    :-/

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    In my (limited) experience, while the wall thickness may vary slightly from jug to jug...so minute would be the difference that you would have to have ultra sensitive hands to be able to feel the lag in time/temperature...and hence while the temp could be different, it too would be only a minute difference.

    Now if the jug had two skins...aww wait a minute...it would be a thermos ;)

    Man...we really get into the tough stuff on this forum!

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    Re: Microwaved v frothed milk

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1203483269/15#27 date=1208082545
    Also, keep your jug in the fridge when not in use. That will make a difference too! ;)
    Sure will make a difference. One whole degree Celsius. Whee.

    Check http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1203570795/17#17 for mathematical proof of this assertion. (down the bottom of post #17 - save yourself from reading the whole post)

    Summary:
    "So our milk goes up in temp by 1 DegC when we put it into a room temp jug. Would that affect our ability to create microfoam? I leave you to answer that one."

    So I am not in the camp that refrigerates their jug. See previous posts to this thread where I admit to (occasionally) microwaving my milk up to 40 degC before commencing steaming. The end result isnt that different from steaming from cold, but as Ray_C points out, that quality isnt that high to begin with... :-)

    35Deg difference = small difference in foam. 1 deg difference = 1/35 small (read indistinguishable) difference in foam.

    Myth: Refrigerating our jug gives better microfoam. Status: Busted. Caveat: Argument based on maths (strong) and my own experience (well...)



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