70degC I believeOriginally Posted by NewToEspresso link=1210221873/0#0 date=1210221873
70degC I believeOriginally Posted by NewToEspresso link=1210221873/0#0 date=1210221873
Unless the customer wants it, "very hot" :(Originally Posted by Bill link=1210221873/0#1 date=1210223679
... and very burnt.Originally Posted by Dennis link=1210221873/0#2 date=1210226691
So, is the optimum heat about 65 degrees and no higher?
I thought milk burns at higher than 80 degrees? Is burn temp different from flat taste temp?
Why do customers ask for "extra hot"?
I couldnt think of anything more unappealing than to take a sip of a drink that will ultimately burn my lips, tongue and peel the roof off of my mouth.
When I serve this (and I cringe when I do) I actually advise them that if they burn themselves, it is THEIR responsibilty, and not to come crying to me, because it was you that asked for it.
And to drink milk that has come close to scolding...No thanks.
N2E....I believe it is at about 72*+ that it starts to get that "scolding" taste. Heat the milk to how hot you actually like it...for me personally, its around the 50*-55* mark, or when your hand cannot physically hold the jug.
I used to love that:Originally Posted by Maccas_chicka link=1210221873/0#5 date=1210236061
"Can I have a large weak skinny decaf latte purlease...Nice and hot"...
"Well, I can make it nice or I can make it hot. Which would you prefer?" * ::);D
Thats hilarious Chris. Will have to remember that one ;D ;DOriginally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1210221873/0#6 date=1210236225
I was under the impression milk scalds at a bit over 70C, so I dont like to go near that temp. If its hot on my palm, its hot enough for my mouth. Not that Ive been drinking much milk lately ...
Chris.... love it!!! ;D ;D ;D ;DOriginally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1210221873/0#6 date=1210236225
There is a sign at the engravers where we have our handles engraved.....
Engraving is good quality, fast and cheap....
If you want quality - it wont be fast or cheap
If you want fast work - it wont be quality or cheap
and if you want cheap - dont expect it to be quality or fast
Who says the customer is always right ;) ;D ;D ;D
I have a friend who will only drink their coffee boiling hot so they "can sip it slowly"....
So I texture everyone elses milk, pour their coffees and return the jug to the steam wand where I blast the livin daylights out of it..... soapsuds like you wouldnt believe - and they love it :P
No accounting for taste!
You certainly notice a change in the milk. The bubbles go huge at too high temp, and the milk actually smells.
You naughty, naughty milk!Originally Posted by Maccas_chicka link=1210221873/0#5 date=1210236061
I just love to hear it scream... :(
Above 80°C milk proteins break down.
But the "right" temperature, assuming you dont have an asbestos-lined mouth, is one in which the milk coffee can be comfortably drunk right away. If your tongue gets burned, its too darned hot.
Im in the ~55C camp... By the time I get to the bottom of the cup, the coffee is still pretty warm and going down like liquid gold 8-),
I prefer my milk at about 2*C. Any warmer and it tastes a bit funny.
I like the milk to stay out of my coffee altogether..... but Im learning ;) .
Brilliant! Ill use this one the next time Im on cafe duty and someone asks for one of them.Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1210221873/0#6 date=1210236225
Thanks guys... The reason I asked this question is because I seem to make lattes at work with the Gaggia Carezza which tastes heaps better than the lattes I make at home with the silvia. Same beans, same milk but somehow the gaggia one has a full pleasant flavour but the silvia one is a bit flat. I tried straight espressos from both and seem to get better espressos (more consistent) from the silvia (no surprises there), so I figured it has to be the milk.Originally Posted by robusto link=1210221873/0#11 date=1210258128
The gaggia with the modified silvia wand has a good blast of steam for doesnt sustain it for long which is not an issue when steaming milk for one in a 300ml jug and starting the steaming process before the boiler cuts out. It starts slow, builds up and then dies down again. Ive managed to work it such that during the slow building up part, Im stretching the milk and at its peak, its swirling the milk without stretching and Im done just before it growls indication loss of steam power. How I know when to stop is when the jug starts getting too hot to hold in my hands and then I remove my hand from the bottom of the jug and turn the knob off before removing the jug from the wand. I think that is where the difference is. At that point where I remove the jug from the gaggia, there is not much steam already so the temp doesnt go up much more but the silvia is still at full blast at that point and the time I take to switch off the steam knob, the temp would have gone up 5 degrees easily.
As for sensing the heat with the tongue, the ones I make with the silvia I cant really drink it straightaway because its a little too hot... Voila! thats the problem! Thanks guys!
As for doing without milk altogether... one step at a time, Im in the process of weaning off the sugar atm, coming from coffee with sweetened condensed milk, Ive got a lot of re-programming to do which isnt going to happen overnight.
Sounds like youre going too hot with Silvia, with full cream milk I get a lovely microfoam with a sweetness that makes a latte taste heavenly.
A little too much temp and you get the burnt taste in the milk.
When steaming I flick of the steam switch first then the steam knob and remove jug as quickly as possible.
Its all in the technique!!
Apart from temperature of the milk, there are of course other explanations to the difference in taste.
Same beans and same milk...what about the grinder? Is this the same too?
Try making a shot from each without the milk. OK, so youre not too keen on espresso. Just dip your finger in and taste each. Im guessing that you are going to taste a difference, either due to the grind, the difference between how each machine extracts, or even because of the water...but thats another thread!
Good point. The grinder paired with the silvia is the rocky and the grinder for the Gaggia is a Delonghi KG100. I think Melbourne water doesnt vary all that much, the water at work is an installed filter which comes out of a dedicated tap with a hot water option whereas at home its the Brita jug water only for the silvia. I did try the espresso straight from both and whilst I cant really identify the characteristics or enjoy it, if I had to choose which espresso Id prefer to drink, Id choose the silvia one because its more consistent, doesnt really taste bitter though intense. Not that the gaggia one is far off either.Originally Posted by Dennis link=1210221873/15#18 date=1210290747
Me too, around 55-60 is good for me.Originally Posted by Mal link=1210221873/0#12 date=1210261855
Around 65 upwards I find too hot and doesnt taste as nice.
My wife used to think I made the lattes a bit cool,
but now I am one of the few who can make her latte the way she likes it,
and I still steam to the same temp.
What do they mean by “extra hot” though? What temperature is that?Originally Posted by Maccas_chicka link=1210221873/0#5 date=1210236061
I could perhaps shed some light on this, as my mother is one of those people you’re referring to. She says that a lot of cafes serve the coffee luke-warm, so she always asks for it to be HOT. Now since I’m a CoffeeSnob, I refuse to serve her a coffee that I’d consider to be excessively hot, so I served her a coffee with the milk steamed to just below 70degC. Her comment on trying it – “well at least it’s hot”. So obviously 70deg is hot enough for her. So I think the reason that many people ask for their coffees to be “extra hot” may be more to do with having been served coffees that are too cool in the past.
As discussed above, I dont think they actually want it THAT hot. They just want it served at the correct temp, not too cold.Originally Posted by Maccas_chicka link=1210221873/0#5 date=1210236061
Maybe its got to do with the cup wasnt warm in the first place and cooled it down, and also the espresso shot was sitting around cooling off also.... maybe its not Mr Milkys fault in the first place!
Just a thought!
Yep, that could be right too.
You could serve a lukewarm coffee in a burning hot cup and it would be "hot."
Try preheating your cups and just heat the milk to 60. Im sure the coffee will be hot enough.
Decided to put the theory to the test and the moment I arrived home, I switched on the silvia. Did the boiler refill and blank shot thing to expedite the warming of the silvia, walked to the shops to get more milk, came back, another blank shot, 30 minutes later and its all systems go. Decided to remove all speculation on what the temp would be so out came the DMM, pinned the probe in between my fingers on the same hand holding the jug so I can see what the temp is in relation to what my other hand senses on the bottom of the jug. Pulled the shot, tried the espresso and it was not bitter at all, a hint of sourness perhaps, I couldnt really tell. And now, for the milk part. Bled, bled some more and off we go. Because I could see the temp as I steamed it, I stopped the steaming quite a bit earlier than I usually did. Also, the feeling of heat on my "sensing" hand was that where I stopped it, it was significantly cooler than where I usually stop. The temp reading? 63.5 degrees... GEEEZ! I have been burning the milk the past few weeks!!!
Now, the taste test... wouldnt you know it... it was Mmmmmmmmmmmmm! How does it compare to the gaggia one I had this morning? Hard to say given that last cup was taken at 9am, but Id have to say it would at least be on par if not better.
Now, Ill have to go apologise to all the friends Ive served the coffee with dead milk to the past few weeks!
Analysis of the problem: When I decided to remove the thermometer altogether some months ago now, my tolerance for heat was probably lower. Now, at the same "ouch" sensation, its probably at 75 degrees or higher. At the 63.5 degree mark, I would have been able to keep holding the bottom of the jug for a few seconds before it got too hot. Have to re-programme that now to detect when to stop steaming.
We serve it at 60* and that is with a thermometer. "Extra hot" is an extra 10* or so, so that makes it 70*+Originally Posted by Bill link=1210221873/15#21 date=1210311006
It is of course personal preference. Again I like to enjoy my coffee not scold my mouth.So I think the reason that many people ask for their coffees to be “extra hot” may be more to do with having been served coffees that are too cool in the past.
I agree with you Bill.Originally Posted by Bill link=1210221873/15#21 date=1210311006
I had a friend visit for the first time and she asked for "hot".
I told her Id make it my way and she could judge from that because I had no benchmark for what she meant by hot.
I too figured she may have been supplied with cold coffees in the past.
I agree with this 100%. *For years we have been getting coffees luke warm to cool. Why? I do not know,.. maybe the coffee makers are rushed/afraid to do it too long/been told not to do it any longer than... etc... but we thought it might have something to do with an industry standard (mainly because this was happening evvvvverywhere) thinking it was possibly set at a certain temperature for public safety reasons.Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1210221873/15#27 date=1210330951
For approx the past year,. we have been ordering our coffees very hot,.. and let me just say....even this is way cooler than what temp everyone is talking about here, and it is probably this reason why I have been so confused about what is considered the right *milk/coffee temperature. I actually thought that my temperature gauge must be way out or something. *Im still quite shocked that you all foam to such high temps, but so glad to hear this at the same time.
When my mother and I were given an impromptu coffee making and milk texturing demo at Cosmorex, the guy there showed us the difference tastes & smells in milk foamed to the right temp and then over temp. My mother mentioned that we order our coffees very hot and he said we will have to learn to enjoy coffee at a lower temp. However,.. when I make a coffee at home,.. and foam the milk to 55(it rises further to about 60)..it is waaaaaay hotter than what we are ever served in a cafe even when we ask for it very hot. *Foaming to a temp of 55 is as hot as I could stand it,.. there is no way I would foam to 60+.
So I have gone from thinking,.. urgh at Cosmorex at the thought of having to learn to enjoy coffee at a lower temp than we were used to,.... to finding out that the reaaaaal temp is much hotter than we can get when we order our coffees very hot in a cafe.
So,.. I just had a brain wave,....I think we should order coffee by temp in future,.. say something like,.. "please heat milk to 55deg". *Would that be reasonable to ask??
Try it and see what reactions you get.
If a customer asks me for an extra or very hot, they get 75*. Ive asked them (politely) to try it before they leave, and yep, the response is that they like it that way.
I prefer my coffee at around the 55-60 mark, and would prefer to get a lukewarm coffee than one at the above temp, or higher, any day! I also like to drink coffee when its gone cold, as some of the flavours are more pronounced.
When I texture milk, my hand against the jug is my temp gauge ...
No customers have ever complained about their resultant brew being too hot/lukewarm/cold.
But thats just my experience.
To anyone using a thermometer attached to their jug, Id say chuck it & practise ... practise with your hand - & go with your gut.
Something worth noting on this thread, which I havent seen mentioned, is the vessel into which youre pouring the milky stuff into, & the consequent chemistry kazaam ...
The wider the diameter of the cup, the quicker any heated beverage cools - be it milk based, pure espresso, a hot choc, or a herbal tea.
Heat retention/dispersal is relative to vessel configuration ;)
I dont think it hurts to check every now and then Tony. I like to think of it as quality control. Who knows, on a cold morning, your hand may appreciate a few extra degrees.
Customers who dont complain often do so to others, and go elsewhere.
professional baristas i know start the shift using a digital thermometer to get a feel for the temp, after a couple of jugs remove it , after having a break they do the same
the industry training is when you cant touch the bottom of the jug for more than 1 sec it is hot enough.
how hot, i have a lady who works for me who has fair skin, to hot for her is about 40*c , others are melting the jug
thermometers make sense to get an idea of temp to work on
often cafes dont use them because they feel it doesnt look professional, but if more used them we would have less warm or burning hot coffees
preheat PF, slow coffee pour, heat milk to 60*c, (soy to 50*c)preheat cup with "hot" water
= nice + hot
I totally agree with you FIX. I reckon consistency is such a key thing for cafes, or home baristas alike. I dont think theres anything wrong with using thermometers of any kind if the goal is consistency.
Just recently, I moved from the normal cheapo milk jug, to a Motta which has way thicker walls, and the whole, "stop when its too hot to touch" thing had to get a makeover.
I went to Mecca 2 the other day and they have the digi thermometer setup for the milk. Paired up with their GB/5, theyre all about consistency - and this adds to their reputation.
I reckon, get everything hot - PF, cups, combined with not leaving the shots lying around to cool - then youve got the consistent temp milk and Roberts your dads bro.
Ive ended up going the other way.. :-[ :(, my lattes are now coming out a tand too cold. Ive measured it and the last 2 have come up as 56 degrees. No complains in the taste department, theyre heaps better than 70+ degrees, but I prefer mine at about 65 degrees but out of fear of overshooting, Ive been stopping them too cold. At that temp, I can pretty much gulp down the whole glass at a go. Holding the jug, its not hot enough to want to make me remove the hand but if I get to that stage, its too hot. And I dont want to go back to the thermometer way either... :-/ :-[
Gee, you obviously havent had a coffee on the Central "Anything under 90C is not hot enough" Coast! I have never, ever been served a coffee that was too cold. Up here, it is a major safety hazard ordering coffee at the vast bulk of cafes. (So I usually dont bother, except at two places). Lots of elderly people who drink instant at home and want the coffee they order in a cafe to taste the same - :o - and be as hot.Originally Posted by Remy link=1210221873/15#28 date=1210334126
Useful trick I learned with people who want to order absurdly hot coffees - heat the handle of the cup under the hot water spout (warn them that the cup is hot though!). At a cafe I worked in a while ago, my manager flat out refused to heat milk above 70C, so she just got us to heat the cup handle. Never ever had someone come back and complain it was cold.
Back when I still ordered coffee with milk, I did once ask a barista for my flat white to be not to hot, and the cheeky punk filled it 3/4 full and then topped it off with cold milk. Fortunately I saw, and very politely asked him to make it again, and this time heat the milk to 60C. He was quite happy to do so.
Im so glad I found this thread. I was about to start a thread on "why is my coffee too cold?".
Winter has hit in Canberra and my morning coffees were also starting to get colder as well. I had been producing excellent cappuccinos from my Silvia for months and seeing as I have a PID installed I was pretty sure Ive been brewing and steaming at the right temperature.
Coffee over the last few weeks has tasted great, but unless it was drunk straight away it was lukewarm at best.
Turns out the problem was not technique, but rather cold hands. I originally learned to microfroth using a milk thermometer, but had stopped using one a while ago. Most mornings I go out running before having a shower and preparing coffee with breakfast. It seems that even after running in gloves and having a warm shower my hands are still pretty cold. Essentially my hands "uncomfortable" temperature threshold has dropped 15-20 degrees.
I used the milk thermometer for the first time in quite a while this morning and found that Ive probably stopped steaming at around 50 degrees recently. As an experiment I held the jug by its handle and continued to steam until 65. Turning off the steam the temperature continued to rise until it 70. Good pour, reasonable microfroth and a nice hot coffee for a cold morning.
I did notice that the 70 degree milk had lost a lot of its flavour and sweetness with the extra temperature. Tomorrow Ill try stopping steaming 5 degrees sooner. Hopefully I can find a good balance between hot and tasty coffee.
I guess our hands need to be recalibrated each season.
But, hang on... Cold hands should mean that you tend to steam hotter, because you can stand a higher temperature, shouldnt it?Originally Posted by LastMile link=1210221873/30#37 date=1211851818
In any case, you could also try listening for the sound change, which can be a very good guide - but calibrate with the thermometer so you know what it means. Not only are peoples hands different, and change with the season, but your own sensitivity can change during the day and with the work context. Combining touch and sound with something objective (thermometer) should give you multiple inputs. You shouldnt need the thermometer all the time, but re-calibrating every so often is a good idea, as youve already learnt.
It must be the temp d"ifference" we feel that tells us it is hot enough.Originally Posted by Dolcimelo link=1210221873/30#38 date=1211853758
So in this case its still cold by the guage when the hands say stop.
Not really. Have you ever gotten into the shower on a cold morning (ie. cold floors) when you havent been wearing slippers or socks - water feels normal on your torso but like it is burning your feet. Spose the same thing happens with cold handsOriginally Posted by Dolcimelo link=1210221873/30#38 date=1211853758
I bought some hot chocolate (the fancy brand at the supermarket I had a laugh, labelle or something) that recommended you steam the milk to 80C. I didnt do it though, 65 is as high as I ever go, pref 60.
Originally Posted by cuppacoffee link=1210221873/30#30 date=1210335844
That gives me an idea espresso strength iced coffee
mmmmmmmm for summer
Anyway back to milk temp that depends on the individual persons tolerence and familiarity
as long as they enjoy what they are drinking "cold, warm, hot" it does not matter. Who are we to argue.
Human pleasure sensors are as individual as the person and I dont think any two are alike.
I like my coffee warm thats about 60-65 deg :)
There is a link here that has a link to the Vibiemme Domobar Super manual as written by 1st-line.
In it, there is an excellent guide for how to stretch milk - page 26 of 44 as quoted by Adobe reader, or page 22 on the bottom of the page in the document.
Have a look at point 7 on page 23 - excellent reading the whole bit.
As for how far you can push the milk before it is damaged, as people have already said, about 70 degrees is the limit.
I went looking for the precise answer. I came across a lot of info from a university reference searcher and found (and downloaded) documents titled -
* *Effect of foaming temperature and varying time-temperature conditions of pre-heating on the foaming properties of skimmed milk
* *Effect of milk homogenisation and foaming temperature on properties. and microstructure of foams from pasteurised whole milk
* *Enhancement of transglutaminase-induced protein cross-linking by preheat treatment of cows’ milk- A statistical approach
* *Heat-induced aggregation of milk protein-stabilized emulsions - sensitivity to processing and composition
* *Relationship between surface tension, free fatty acid concentration and foaming properties of milk
* *The formation of heat-induced protein aggregates in whey protein-pectinmixtures studied by size exclusion chromatography coupled with multi-angle laser light scattering detection
* *The influence of temperature on the foaming of milk
All PDF files.
Lots of reading to do.
I also found these links interesting -
And to get really deep into it,
I thought I was on to something with this one - http://www.foodsci.uoguelph.ca/dairyedu/Utilities.html
Production and Utilization of Steam and Refrigeration
Alas, all about a dairy plant.
So much info out there. Staggering.
So Tasadam, what is the conclusion of all that research? At which exact temp does milk get ruined?
Lots of reading to do to answer that one.
76 degrees C
McDonalds max allowed temp = 70 degrees else legal problems, they got sued and lost ;D
72 degrees high fat
That case should have been dismissed by the judge when the claim was made - as have ALL consequent, similar claims. :)Originally Posted by greenmanor link=1210221873/45#46 date=1213186100