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Thread: Mind games :-)

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    A_M
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    Mind games :-)

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Could not resist this one..

    Quote Originally Posted by 70455C560203350 link=1248922420/27#27 date=1249105014
    Quote Originally Posted by 052A23213609252A25232129212A30440 link=1248922420/26#26 date=1249086530
    The Earth is flat...
    Oh dear. This really messes with my curvature of the earth departure theory of how aeroplanes take off.

    :o
    So if the curvature of the earth is a take off issue...

    What about the lift that is touted as being the reason that planes can fly.. And that this is caused by the difference in air pressure from being passed over a curved and thus longer surface etc etc...

    If that is so... How come planes with that same principle in their build ie. those in teh RED Bull and most stunt planes / fighter planes etc can fly upside down..

    If the theory was 100% correct - then they should dive down and thus crash, as their lift is in reverse and is in harmony with gravity (Earth sucking) = fall from sky ;D :D

    Sorry... Needed a break, as I have just made up a wooden surround to replace the SS bling that holds my Gauge in on the BFC Junior Automatic (aka La Valentina, Diadema, Vittoria).

    As soon as I get the material to do up a Knock Box... The system will be totally custom.

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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 527D7476615E727D7274767E767D67130 link=1249113398/0#0 date=1249113398
    What about the lift that is touted as being the reason that planes can fly.. *And that this is caused by the difference in air pressure from being passed over *a curved and thus longer surface etc etc...

    If that is so... How come planes with that same principle in their build ie. those in teh RED Bull and most stunt planes / fighter planes etc can fly upside down.. *

    If the theory was 100% correct - then they should dive down and thus crash, as their lift is in reverse and is in harmony with gravity (Earth sucking) = *fall from sky * *
    A very good Q AM. *Btw, weve just lost 99% of the readership at this point. *Hahaha.

    Anyway, there are 3 components to how much lift a wing generates:

    Angle of Attack - the angle between the wing and the airflow. Think about driving with your flat hand out the window, into the wind....and then angling your fingertips higher than your wrist....voila an upwards force)
    Airspeed - Self explanatory; and
    Camber - How curved the wing is.

    There isnt an aircraft made that cant fly upside down (google Tex Perkins Roll Boeing 707 for a good read) however those that are made to do it (fighter jets, aerobatic aircraft, etc) have almost zero camber. *Their wing is near, if not perfectly symmetrical. *In the absence of camber, their lift is derived from airspeed and angle of attack alone. *

    Now, remember that first hand dangerously out the window of a car experiment? *This time angle your hand down and voila....a downwards force. *A good example of a symmetrical aerofoil (your hand) changing the angle of attack (from below your hand to above your hand) to create lift in opposite directions.


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    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 0E3B22287C7D4B0 link=1249113398/1#1 date=1249115194
    Now, remember that first hand dangerously out the window of a car experiment?This time angle your hand down and voila....a downwards force.A good example of a symmetrical aerofoil (your hand) changing the angle of attack (from below your hand to above your hand) to create lift in opposite directions.
    Technically I dont think you should refer to the downward force as "lift".

    WARNING:
    Any kids reading this should NOT be putting their hands out of car windows.

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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C39202A7E7F490 link=1249113398/1#1 date=1249115194

    hand dangerously out the window of a car
    when i 1st looked at this i thought it said "HANG dangerously out the window"

    and i thought, "Hey i remember doing that" I had a laugh

    then i re-read it......

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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 043128227677410 link=1249113398/1#1 date=1249115194
    Anyway, there are 3 components to how much lift a wing generates:
    If your into flight or Flight SIMS.. Let me know and maybe we can go visit a mate.. Will need to give some warning.. And he needs to be around :-)

    He has a 4 car garage (Triton shed) set up as a flight sim.. Multiple projectors, Cessna, 747, Bell Chopper etc all set up.

    Has made almost of it from scratch, but built to scale etc.. The units are on wheels and depending on what you want to fly.. The module is rolled in and out of position for the Multiple projectors that are set up to give you a IMax theatre effect on 3 massive screens that are merged into one...

    AM



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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 0E3B22287C7D4B0 link=1249113398/1#1 date=1249115194
    Now, remember that first hand dangerously out the window of a car experiment? This time angle your hand down and voila....a downwards force. A good example of a symmetrical aerofoil (your hand) changing the angle of attack (from below your hand to above your hand) to create lift in opposite directions.
    I inadvertently underwent this highly rigorous aerodynamic experiment not long ago after purchasing a Starchmucks 20oz bucket T/A latte in desperation for a quickly scheduled 2 hour drive.

    The initial taste of warm milk, once my tongue had searched through the 2 inch layer of foam on top, was fine, because I hadnt had breakfast.

    But I needed the caffeine that time of the morn, but searched (yes expectedly) to no avail for anything remotely tasting like coffee.

    On an infrequently travelled highway at that time of the morn, & cognisant of due regard for other drivers & hungry cops wanting to dish out easy demerit points, I made an executive decision to empty the Starschmucks sludge out the window, hand encased around said bucket with wrist firmly locked to resist consequent wind resistance, and downward tipped to dispose.

    The result? Foamed/frothy/fluffy milk 2 inches thick on top disperses quite chaotically when vehicle is humming at 100 clicks over the arm with a dry-cleaned suit attached to the wrist and over the drivers side rear passenger window. Liquid flows a lot easier, and in observation of the regretable foam disposal method tried just prior, I tended to keep it closer to the car to minimise smelling like a milkshake for my impending appointment. Better the car had milky stains than me.

    Lessons learnt?

    1) Dont be desperate and go anywhere near a Starbucks to begin with;
    2) Dont mess with physics - wind resistance at higher speeds obviously means ... er ... more resistance when engaging in a stupid experience like throwing a cup of liquid out of a window;
    3) Yes TG, dont let your kids see you do something so brazenly dementia-like, without testing scientific credibility of said experiment prior;
    4) Made me wonder on a physics level, does weight of resitance against wind resistance reduce impact, and make it on aero-dynamic level less credible because it is heavier even though it can cut through the resistance due to its weight proportional to resistance? Or does its weight just invalidate this equation? Bigger engine needed to propel?;
    5) Ahhh, back to lesson 1), and just pack the Aeropress for the road-trips;
    6) Epic, dont you guys just pre-set a satnav type thingy & the aircraft drives itself? ;D





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    Senior Member Coffee2Di4's Avatar
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    Re: Mind games :-)

    (*tiptoes very quietly out of the room backwards*)

    (*turns around as she gets to the doorway and makes a mad dash!*)

    ;)

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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 6A5F44434962436948404C43492D0 link=1249113398/5#5 date=1249120816
    2) *Dont mess with physics - wind resistance at higher speeds obviously means ... er ... more resistance when engaging in a stupid experience

    I was sick .... very sick up in FNQ and after being transported back to the mainland got in my car and had to drive to the Cairns base... *:(

    Now I had the flu and dysentery, so I was not clear headed... *In any sense of teh word.

    Any movement meant flexing of abbs (had them back then) and resulted in other less than desirable motions.. *To say I was sitting in a sh!tty position was an understatement... * :o


    For some reason.... I sneesed / coughed and SH#$$%ed all at teh same time and had a mouth full of flem; in addition to other things. *Now here is where the mind and physics fail...


    I was coming up to a SHARP corner and as my window was down, thought I will not twist my abbs again... *I will wait until I hit the corner and as the window moves in front of me, I will spit out the mouth full of gunk, before I vomit.

    Needless to say... The window stayed where it was in relation to me and I spat all over the front of my windscreen.. *:( *:o *::) :-[ *:-X *:(

    END NOTE: *EM staff at the BASE were not happy to see me and who ever the wards person was, that moved my car from the Ambulance bay; was a BRAVE MAN..

    Two weeks later... It was all a bad dream.

    Note: Physics does not always work teh way you want...

  9. #9
    Senior Member Pavoniboy's Avatar
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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 557A73716659757A75737179717A60140 link=1249113398/4#4 date=1249120763
    He has a 4 car garage (Triton shed) set up as a flight sim..Multiple projectors, Cessna, 747, Bell Chopper etc all set up.

    Has made almost of it from scratch, but built to scale etc..The units are on wheels and depending on what you want to fly.. The module is rolled in and out of position for the Multiple projectors that are set up to give you a IMax theatre effect on 3 massive screens that are merged into one...

    AM
    WOW! Though has he now spent as much as it would cost to buy a plane? That is an amazing setup.

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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 7E425F444E4F584D454E2A0 link=1249113398/2#2 date=1249117165
    Technically I dont think you should refer to the downward force as "lift".

    WARNING:
    Any kids reading this should NOT be putting their hands out of car windows.
    Why not, negative "lift" is still lift just as negative acceleration is still acceleration. When talking physics/maths you dont have "fall" and deceleration ;D. So technically when talking about the force the term lift is still valid.

    Dont worry this is just me being a smart ass (but it is still true).

    Its good to know studying physics has some use.

  11. #11
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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3001160F0E09020F19600 link=1249113398/8#8 date=1249123294
    Quote Originally Posted by 557A73716659757A75737179717A60140 link=1249113398/4#4 date=1249120763
    He has a 4 car garage (Triton shed) set up as a flight sim..Multiple projectors, Cessna, 747, Bell Chopper etc all set up.

    Has made almost of it from scratch, but built to scale etc..The units are on wheels and depending on what you want to fly.. The module is rolled in and out of position for the Multiple projectors that are set up to give you a IMax theatre effect on 3 massive screens that are merged into one...

    AM
    WOW! Though has he now spent as much as it would cost to buy a plane? That is an amazing setup.
    I know some people whod love to see that setup! Wow! 8-)

  12. #12
    Super Moderator scoota_gal's Avatar
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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 70455C560203350 link=1248922420/27#27 date=1249105014
    Quote Originally Posted by 052A23213609252A25232129212A30440 link=1248922420/26#26 date=1249086530
    The Earth is flat...
    Oh dear. This really messes with my curvature of the earth departure theory of how aeroplanes take off.

    :o

    You should come out here, Epic to test that theory. Its so flat, you can see the curvature of the Earth! ;D [smiley=lolk.gif]

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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Next Brisbane coffee snobs get together at the flight simulator shed
    We will tempt your mate with coffee

    KK

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    A_M
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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 293935352E3B053D3B365A0 link=1249113398/10#10 date=1249130306
    Quote Originally Posted by 3001160F0E09020F19600 link=1249113398/8#8 date=1249123294
    Quote Originally Posted by 557A73716659757A75737179717A60140 link=1249113398/4#4 date=1249120763
    He has a 4 car garage (Triton shed) set up as a flight sim..Multiple projectors, Cessna, 747, Bell Chopper etc all set up.

    Has made almost of it from scratch, but built to scale etc..The units are on wheels and depending on what you want to fly.. The module is rolled in and out of position for the Multiple projectors that are set up to give you a IMax theatre effect on 3 massive screens that are merged into one...

    AM
    WOW! Though has he now spent as much as it would cost to buy a plane? That is an amazing setup.
    I know some people whod love to see that setup! Wow! *8-)
    I understand he does get visitors that fly in to have a look...

    It is a hobby to keep him occupied as he has suffered an injury some time ago and it only now that AGE and Gravity etc have compounded the damage and thus he is no longer able to work...


    He loves to catch up with people, so I will follow up as to a special one off for Epic and look at a future PARTY type arrangement for interested CS... Hoyks may need to be involved.. I can manage the ideas, but planning etc for this type of adventure aint my thing ;)




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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 5569746F656473666E65010 link=1249113398/2#2 date=1249117165
    Technically I dont think you should refer to the downward force as "lift".
    This is one of those times that the technical and laypersons definitions differ TG. *At the risk of going too technical "Lift is a resolved component of aerodynamic force and acts perpendicular to the relative airflow (thus relative motion)". * So, it can be in any direction. *If the aircraft is upright & moving forwards, lift acts upwards. *If the aircraft is flying inverted, lift acts downwards and so on.*In the latter case, lift is acting down, weight is acting down and the aircraft descends rapidly. Unless...youre in one of AMs Red Bull racers that are able to use the upwards force of lift from angle of attack to equal (balance) the downwards forces of weight AND lift from camber. Of the four forces of flight (lift, weight, thrust & drag) the only one that acts in a constant direction is weight - always towards the centre of the earth, courtesy of gravity. *

    If on the other hand, youre recalling an explanation given to you in an introductory flying lesson etc, the concept of lift acting upwards is a half-truth because thats only the case in straight and level flight. *Its explained in this way because a). Its a simplification for ease of understanding; & b) Dont want you flying upside down on your first lesson! *;D

    P.S. Apologies for trying to explain this in text. A picture is worth a thousand words!

    Quote Originally Posted by 6C606964646D010 link=1249113398/3#3 date=1249117548
    "HANG dangerously out the window"
    I choose not to respond to that lest my past incriminate me *;)

    Quote Originally Posted by 406F6664734C606F6066646C646F75010 link=1249113398/4#4 date=1249120763
    (Triton shed) set up as a flight sim..
    That sounds like an awesome setup AM. *This visit could be a little toit on time but thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by 14213A3D371C3D17363E323D37530 link=1249113398/5#5 date=1249120816
    4) *Made me wonder on a physics level......Or does its weight just invalidate this equation? *Bigger engine needed to propel?;
    Gotta state that Im neither Physicist nor Aerodynamicist. *Just an airline pilot that was a flying instructor, back in the day. *From an aeronautical perspective, the greater the drag (aerodynamic resistance to motion) the easier it is to rip out of your hand. *The greater the weight, the greater the momentum (thus less change in path for each unit of drag its subjected to). *Re the engine, yup! *Assuming straight and level flight, for every extra unit of weight, you need an extra unit of lift to support it. *Every unit of lift comes at a cost - a unit of drag. *Each unit of drag needs a unit of thrust to oppose it. *And so the cycle goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4673686F654E6F45646C606F65010 link=1249113398/5#5 date=1249120816
    6) *Epic, dont you guys just pre-set a satnav type thingy & the aircraft drives itself? *
    Bugger...that was meant to be a trade secret. *Yes we go to the navigator menu, select favourites and then go home and off she goes. *Tom Tom is actually a division of Airbus * :D

    Quote Originally Posted by 002C3F39242C21120022232628344D0 link=1249113398/9#9 date=1249123636
    When talking physics/maths you dont have "fall" and deceleration
    Absoutely MM! *I think its like Joe Punter saying a vacuum sucks when actually its the higher pressure that pushes. *Common understanding and reality (albeit a technical one) differ.

    Quote Originally Posted by 72626E6E75605E66606D010 link=1249113398/11#11 date=1249130542
    You should come out here, Epic to test that theory.
    Is that an offer to host a fly in? *Im sure I can find a few CSers to fill the plane!


  16. #16
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Mind games :-)

    All this discussion of what makes a plane fly reminds me of my first day at ground school. The instructor asked What makes a plane fly?. There followed 15 minutes of all the usual explanations (as gone through in the above posts) which after each one the instructor would say Nope!. Finally no one could think of any other possible explanations and there was silence. The instructor asked Everyone give up? after the nodding of heads was over he says Ok, Ill tell you what makes planes fly. Everyone leaned forward in the chairs and craned their necks to hear the revelation about to come. What makes airplanes fly? Money!. ::) ;D


    Java "How right he was!" phile

  17. #17
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 44687B7D60686556446667626C70090 link=1249113398/9#9 date=1249123636
    Why not, negative "lift" is still lift just as negative acceleration is still acceleration. When talking physics/maths you dont have "fall" and deceleration Grin. So technically when talking about the force the term lift is still valid.

    Dont worry this is just me being a smart ass (but it is still true).

    Its good to know studying physics has some use.
    I stand corrected; I did biology (much more fun with a study partner).

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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 032C2527300F232C2325272F272C36420 link=1249113398/4#4 date=1249120763

    If your into flight or Flight SIMS.. Let me know and maybe we can go visit a mate.. *Will need to give some warning.. *And he needs to be around :-)

    He has a 4 car garage (Triton shed) set up as a flight sim.. *Multiple projectors, Cessna, 747, Bell Chopper etc all set up.

    Has made almost of it from scratch, but built to scale etc.. *The units are on wheels and depending on what you want to fly.. The module is rolled in and out of position for the Multiple projectors that are set up to give you a IMax theatre effect on 3 massive screens that are merged into one...

    AM

    My mate, silent coffee snob Bret, is building something similar upstairs in his house.

    Not individual modules but a 747 cockpit to true 1:1 scale - system currently runs on 5 systems to give real time display on all panels - yep the side windows are panels as well


  19. #19
    A_M
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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 252D353F22460 link=1249113398/17#17 date=1249176487
    Quote Originally Posted by 032C2527300F232C2325272F272C36420 link=1249113398/4#4 date=1249120763

    If your into flight or Flight SIMS.. Let me know and maybe we can go visit a mate.. *Will need to give some warning.. *And he needs to be around :-)

    He has a 4 car garage (Triton shed) set up as a flight sim.. *Multiple projectors, Cessna, 747, Bell Chopper etc all set up.

    Has made almost of it from scratch, but built to scale etc.. *The units are on wheels and depending on what you want to fly.. The module is rolled in and out of position for the Multiple projectors that are set up to give you a IMax theatre effect on 3 massive screens that are merged into one...

    AM

    My mate, silent coffee snob Bret, is building something similar upstairs in his house.

    Not individual modules but a 747 cockpit to true 1:1 scale - system currently runs on 5 systems to give real time display on all panels - yep the side windows are panels as well
    Then see if he has had contact with Gordon Turner Brisbane ex Army.

  20. #20
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    Re: Mind games :-)

    No, he tells me he hasnt, but Gordons sim didnt surprise him. The are quite a few out there apparently.

    Some guy in Liverpool apparenly has one with motion effect :o

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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 454D555F42260 link=1249113398/19#19 date=1249206893
    No, he tells me he hasnt, but Gordons sim didnt surprise him. The are quite a few out there apparently.

    Some guy in Liverpool apparenly has one with motion effect *:o
    Last time I was there he had in excess of a dozen PCs and each module has about 3 - The cockpits are real size for teh smaller units and all the seating and thrusters etc are all made as per the real thing... Even all the radio and coms items are set-up in the dash etc and you have to dial in all ya settings..

    Too much like work... Give me a GUI...

    Next thing he was looking at, was rams and air shocks to give extra feelings etc..

    Ya know how many coffee machines he could have :-)

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    Re: Mind games :-)

    Yeah, a bit like Bret but sounds like a much grander scale...



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