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Thread: Power Generation Grid Feed System

  1. #1
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Power Generation Grid Feed System is the subject

    I have ordered a 1 KW solar system with help from the government grant its worked out very helpful price wise
    In QLD we have a grid feed set up in which they pay you for the access power you produce (I think thats how it works)

    However to be more self sufficient power wise
    I have some ideas of a hybrid system

    I need to ask some electrical engineers that can think outside the box if this will work

    Wind Turbine normal system works by air pushing the blades and turns a power generating motor

    I have some thoughts and plans that eliminate the use of the fan blades and the pole

    My plan is to use a John Bedinis monopole motor connected by belt & pulley or Direct connection if it suits to turn the 5kw power generating motor that is normally turned by wind power

    In this way I can build a system that can run at maximum rated speed 24 hours a day on a very small footprint at ground level

    So does anybody know how to build a Bedini Motor or Buy a quality kit
    And does my idea have merit ??

    This drawing is a rough plan of the components

    KK






  2. #2
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Gday KK,

    While Solar or Wind generated electricity is viable, the so-called Bedini Motor is a hoax... Basically claiming to be nothing less than a type of perpetual motion machine. Steer clear of it mate, you will only be disappointed.

    Also, if you have the "Grid" at your doorstep, you dont need to invest in any expensive storage system which after 10 or so years will most likely need to be replaced anyway. With feeding excess generated power into the Grid, you accumulate a credit which is summed with the power you draw from the Grid at the end of a billing period. Either you pay for the excess youve used or you end up with a credit. A very simple system.

    People in remote areas who dont have the Grid right outside their front doors are in a very different situation of course, they need to include a storage system from which to draw their power requirements at night or on very overcast days. There are a number of different Wind Powered Generation designs in use around the country and some of these dont have much of a footprint, some can be put together at home from a kit, some from plans and of course you can just buy a prefabbed system and have it installed.

    Theres a lot of info on the Net about Wind Generation Systems and a search will probably turn up a veritable mountain of information to sift through. We were thinking of opting in to the current subsidised scheme here in QLD but I dont think we will have the resources available in time before the grant scheme expires. All the best with this KK.... :)

    Mal.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Thanks Mal
    I have been looking at all options and thought that my idea made sense

    I was given a DVD with the Bedini motor working I thought it looked credible (I can post you a copy)

    I thought if the Bedini motor works as it was presented in the DVD tests, than my idea should work easily as a hybrid design

    I was lucky that I ordered my 1 KW Solar system before the QLD cut off date & we are able to claim $8000 rebate

    KK

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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    :-?I dont understand? :-?

    In your drawing you have nothing powering the motor?
    Are they the batteries?
    If so where is the power coming from to recharge the batteries? This seems like a larger footprint. Instead of having the wind drive a turbine to drive an AC generator, you have the wind driving a turbine driving a DC generator, charging a battery, that drives a motor that drives an AC generator. WHY? Adding an extra step or device adds extra inefficiencies.

    Am I missing something?

    If you need 24 hour supply from a wind generation system, why not use the turbine to drive a 12V DC generator? This generator would charge (car) batteries that are connected to an inverter. Simple. Everything is off the shelf - developed for other industries.

    Googling the "Bedini monopole motor" came up with someone developing a so called better battery charger. Seemed too large for it to be practical too me (if it worked at all). The electronic circuits that were shown seem very, very simplistic and very inefficient in todays standards to me. This leads me to believe that this is a total load of crap.

    Other sites show people grabbing the battery charger and claiming free energy;

    "This device makes the del-phi waves we will utilize, but does NOT make currents of electron masses. *In other words, it makes pure Ø-dot. *If frequency content, spin-hole content, etc. are properly constructed by the energizer, then the ion movements in the battery reverse themselves, recharging the battery. * Again, remember that these ions MOVE THEMSELVES during this recharge phase. *Specifically, we are NOT furnishing ordinary current to the battery, and we are not doing work on it from the energizer.
    If things are built properly, the battery can be made to more than recover its charge during this pulse cycle.
    To prevent excess charge of the battery and overheating and destroying it, a sensor is added which senses the state of charge of the battery, and furnishes a feedback signal to the fairy at the bottom of the garden. She then passes a message to the troll under the bridge by changing her aura. The Troll then thumps the ground with his club. This specific vibration is in tune with the surrounding ether allowing the signal to run all the way to the North Pole where Santa Claus hears it. He lets of a fart which blows a turbine to run the vcontroller to regulate the length of recharge time per "power off" pulse. *In other words, the system is now self-regulating.


    (Sorry I made the middle bit up. The web site made the rest up).
    Is this the part I am missing?

  5. #5
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    As I interpret the Bedini concept (dont fully understand it yet)
    It is Energy/Power collection from the vacuum and it is in gas form

    The 2 batteries are recharged one at a time and switch from being slave to primary as the voltage min level is reached

    It is not a perpetual motion machine

    He said in the DVD, the captured power is the power that is now normally filtered out or not used for conventional use

    This discarded power is captured by the north facing monopole magnets at a precise oscillating pulse point and the captured power is stored in batteries

    The monopole charger can also be built on a swing pendulum design.

    Its food for thought :-/

    KK

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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    I still dont get it, what is powering the motor?
    You said that you wish to eliminate the use of the fan blades and pole.
    How are you intending to use this battery discharge device?

    Are you talking about this;
    http://www.eternaltruth.net/Science/JOHN%20BEDINIS%20FREE%20ENERGY%20GENERATOR.htm

  7. #7
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Quote Originally Posted by 6764767672647C050 link=1240751087/5#5 date=1240796558
    I still dont get it, what is powering the motor?
    You said that you wish to eliminate the use of the fan blades and pole.
    How are you intending to use this battery discharge device?

    Are you talking about this;
    http://www.eternaltruth.net/Science/JOHN BEDINIS FREE ENERGY GENERATOR.htm
    Thats the one, the first battery is the initial starter and power source then the magnets combined with centrifugal force take over,
    When power is required by the motor it draws it from the primary battery at that time in minuscule amounts

    There are lots of links
    Here is another 2
    This one below is the most detailed
    http://www.icehouse.net/john34/bedinibearden.html

    http://peswiki.com/energy/Directory:Bedini_SG

    KK

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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Ah,

    My advise, ditch it. Its B.S, crapola.

    This device does one thing and only one thing; it discharges batteries.

    Yes the first battery powers the motor, which spins the flywheel. Then all the energy (kinetic) is contained the flywheel. Energy is lost in the way of heat from the bearings, air resistance, wire resistance, the 0.6V drop across all diodes in circuit (including the transistors), the resistors in the triple 5 timer setup circuit, power consumption in the IC, the friction in the relay (or 2V drop for a SSR) etc (Im sure Mal could add more). The energy is then replaced by the primary battery.

    How would you use this device? Is it to store energy?
    Im getting back to my first point.
    This device is just adding more loss to the system.
    You could get your turbine to push the flywheel going. But all the other crap is just producing heat and maybe a bit of noise. You could chuck the motor, fly wheel, primary battery and timing circuit and get your turbine to power the "high voltage energizer" that then charges your battery. Then you would just go out and buy a 12V DC generator. You could even use a car alternator, if you were so inclined.

    The "tapping energy from a vacuum, just have to crack it" is crap. No where is it explained how this is done. Wishy washy, looney tunes, garbage.
    If you could work out this bit of it and prove it, you would be a shoe in for the Noble Prize for Physics.
    Sorry. :(

  9. #9
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Yep,

    It is definitely CRAPOLA guys... The claims being made for it suggest an Over Unity drive system and that is impossible, hence the reference to a Perpetual Motion device by me above. All these ideas proliferate around the Net and are all nothing more than scams...

    Dont get sucked in KK ;)

    Mal.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    I have found a quiet fan turbine system made in Victoria
    Looks like a jet engine
    Called the hush turbine



    http://www.hushenergy.com.au/

    KK

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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Impressive = could be a winner KK:

    The power output of the 1.5m turbine is rated at 1.25kW and the power output of the 5.5m turbine is rated at 15kW at the inverter output terminals. These ratings are calculated at a constant wind speed of 15m/s, that’s just over 50km/h. TOP

    A good way to think of the power output though is to think of your average house consumption. An all electric house (i.e. electric hot water and stove) has an averaged consumption of about 1kW and has an annual electricity consumption of about 8MWh, the bill in Queensland for example of around $1,000 per year(and set to climb!). A single 1.5m turbine would produce enough power with a 44c/kWhr net renewable feed in tariff and an average production over the year of 0.6kW (5.2MWh) to turn the energy bills around, in fact the energy retailer will end up paying you aroud $1000 per year.

    That’s a payback on installation in less than five years and a huge reduction in greenhouse gases being emitted from your household.


    Thats assuming a constant 50kmh wind. What is the real average wind speed in sub-tropical Brisbane? It also doesnt mention the wind strength rating (from what I could see). Might be worth checking out given the sort of weather weve seen in recent times.

    I wonder if it could cool beans as well? :)

  12. #12
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    In Brisbane some days there is no wind & most days its a very light breeze

    That was the reason for post #1
    To use a motor to turn the AC generating motor without the wind

    Bassways suggestion to

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A594B4B4F5941380 link=1240751087/3#3 date=1240791841
    If you need 24 hour supply from a wind generation system, why not use the turbine to drive a 12V DC generator? This generator would charge (car) batteries that are connected to an inverter. Simple. Everything is off the shelf - developed for other industries.
    It may be the answer

    Now I am faced with another dilemma an Australian company (also makes the plastic bank notes) is on the verge of releasing polymer collection cells that can be printed out on a normal printing press
    As a very much cheaper alternative to present silicon solar cells
    :-/ :-/ :o :-/ :-/
    KK

  13. #13
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Quote Originally Posted by 745059595A5A6074504C52503F0 link=1240751087/11#11 date=1240892709
    n Australian company (also makes the plastic bank notes) is on the verge of releasing polymer collection cells that can be printed out on a normal printing press
    Yeah that was on Catalyst(ABC1) last week. Prolly early days for that technology yet as it is still low output - currently 3% efficiency while standard silicon solar cells can achieve 25%.

    I dont know enough about electrical engineering to critique bassways suggestion - sounds simple enough. What sort of output would you get from a 12volt system hooked up to a power inverter (given the sort of wind you mentioned in your last post) - 1kW. And does it require outlay where you arent getting much/any cost-benefit?

  14. #14
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    I just want the product, in this case an AC Generating motor to work at optimum output at all times

    Its pointless to rely on the wind
    As in my case if the wind is weak the turbine may only produce 10% or less of its capacity

    I need more good ideas [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif]

    KK

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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    KK,

    Check out;
    http://www.yourhome.gov.au/technical/fs69.html

    The installation that you just got is probably like the one on the left (diagram on the top of the page). If you are getting a wind turbine a combination of the two is probably best (output of the batteries goes into the grid connected meter).

    As flynn aus suggested $$$$$$$$.
    The 1kW that is bantered as standard household demand is AVERAGE. In other words power consumed in a day divided by 24 hours. And it depends on what you situation. Where I live there is no piped gas. My hot water and oven are electric. Just my hot plates consume 2.5kW. Think about a Corretto - 2kW heat gun.
    Realistically you need 4 to 5kW minimum to get off the grid.

    Even you are going a lot smaller than that you will still need a lot of batteries.
    Think about leaving your headlights on in the car. How long do they last? A couple of hours? Your headlights consume 100 – 200 watts. That’s with no inverter adding to inefficiency. Imagine a 1kW, let alone 4kW.

    Although how much being able to tell the world to go to hell worth?
    When I got water tanks in, I got an extra feeling of security. The cost of putting them will never be recouped financially but it was worth it.

    Probably the cheapest and easiest way to save energy is to build a home made solar water heater.
    A batch heater is the easiest. Build a box. Line with foil. Put in a black tank. Pipe in and out. Put a piece of glass on top, preferably double glazed. Feed the output into your hot water system.
    A little better is a thermosyphon system. Instead of putting the tank in put some tubing in. Copper pipe painted black is best. The output and input go off to a storage tank. This tank need to above the collector to make this work. Insulating the tank would help to. Also one pipe on the tank needs to go to the top and one on the bottom. This works like, well actually it works the same, as an E61 brew head. As the water in the collector heats it rises to the tank. The cooler water at the bottom replaces the water.
    Check out;
    http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WaterHeating/water_heating.htm
    :)

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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    How about a parabolic solar collector to heat water to steam, drive a turbine to drive your AC generator?

    You would need a lot of land though. One square meter in full sun produces 1kW...max. From memory these are about 20% efficient
    Look for parabolic trough in here;
    http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Concentrating/SOLRCONC.HTM

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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Get an old diesel car. I got a Golf GLD for $400 once.
    Pull the engine out and hook it up to your AC generator.

    Become friendly with your local fish n chip shop. Collect all the use oil. Make bio diesel from it and feed to your diesel engine.
    :)

  18. #18
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Thanks Bassway

    Yes I already have solar hot water the SS Edwards system fitted about 5 years ago and I have the water filtered at the feed in water line.

    I use bottled gas for both stove & hot plates

    I just placed an order for
    A 1kW roof solar system that produces approximately 5kWh (averaged over 12 months) per day

    With this inverter, they use the German manufactured SMA SB1100 Sunnyboy. It is a transformer type inverter

    KK

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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Good stuff the sunnyboy. I have a 1750w system on the roof for a little over a year now. In that time I generate 7.3kwh per day average. I suggest you move to ACT where the feed in system is not based on excess generation over consumption but on total generation at a premium of 50.05c per KwH (purchase cost 12.first crack per KwH) this means that if you generate 25% of your electricity consumption you will get a complete offset of the usage portion of your bill. Feed in on Excess generation is Cr@p. There has been a good take up in Canberra of Grid connect systems with feed in tariff guaranteed for 20 years pay out of the start up cost is in the vicinity of 10 years.

    I also considered the biodiesel (made it for a number of years to power my cruiser and pug 405 diesel) I had a Mazda 929 grey import with a diesel sitting here and seriously considered hooking up the drive shaft to a genset drop her into 4th or 5th and let it idle away. As an aside I was also going to use a heat exchange off the radiator to heat water much like I have on the cruiser for hot showers in the middle of nowhere.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Now all I need is some plans to build my own turbine cheaply
    Must have very good build instructions in text photo & video

    I want to build a 5KW power generating turbine (wind or motor driven)

    I have searched some sites but some instructions were hard to follow
    I prefer the popular mechanics style of build instructions with pictures of every step & text description

    Anybody that finds such instructions please forward them to me

    KK

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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    i saw an interesting looking wind turbine on amazon a while back for about 500 USD. May be worth looking for it, to get some ideas

  22. #22
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Quote Originally Posted by 70545D5D5E5E6470544856543B0 link=1240751087/19#19 date=1241233958
    Now all I need is some plans to build my own turbine cheaply
    Must have very good build instructions in text photo & video

    I want to build a 5KW power generating turbine (wind or motor driven)

    I have searched some sites but some instructions were hard to follow
    I prefer the popular mechanics style of build instructions with pictures of every step & text description

    Anybody that finds such instructions please forward them to me

    KK
    Gday KK,

    You need to be careful with the sizing/rating of your generating capacity... Most State Govts. apply an upper limit to which they are prepared to provide credit for the energy fed into the system; QLDs is not very high from memory so any capacity above that upper limit will be wasted as far as capital expenditure is concerned. As a result, there will be no IRR for the portion above the upper limit.

    Just a thought.....

    Mal.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Mal
    I can claim an $8,000 Government rebate as I got in before the cut off date (This rebate has now reduced to $5,000)
    The company I ordered my 1kw solar system is doing all the paperwork for it

    I am not sure if I can claim again for a wind turbine (I am assuming that I cant) thats why I prefer to make a DIY project

    There is a site in the US that sells plans and claim one can build one for around $200 USD (not sure what size)
    http://www.earth4energy.com/
    But I am sure someone has similar if not the same plans out in WWW land for free

    I can live with making one for up to $1,000 AU

    RE: your answer to grid feed in limits
    I probably need to make a smaller capacity generator to satisfy the government regulations for grid feed limits?

    However I will check into this *thanks

    KK

  24. #24
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Yes KK,

    I am referring to the maximum energy limit (into the grid) that the Govt. will be prepared to pay. Even if you build a system that is capable of supplying in excess of this limit and actually feeds more than the limit into the grid, you will only be credited as high as the limit permits. Anything in excess of this KWH limit will not be credited to you so therefore, any capital expenditure towards a generating capacity higher than this can not be recouped by way of payments/credit above the limit. I do know that under the current Solar Bonus Scheme, the Govt. will pay nearly three times the value of the Net energy that you push into the Grid for the next 20 years or so, so it is not necessary to build a system that would make you fully energy independent in order to benefit from the scheme. I am also fairly certain that the scheme, as it stands, will only benefit consumers who build Solar Power Systems, not systems generating power via any other means.

    You will need to visit the relevant Govt. website that details all of this information or probably just question the people who will be installing your Solar Power System, they will probably know. Anyway, even a system built to remain within the QLD Govt. Renewable Energy Scheme output limits will still be a very worthwhile thing to do and Im sure will result in a credit situation for most households who go to all the trouble and expense of doing this. Somewhere from within the deep, dark recesses of my memory, the maximum daily energy input limit of 10KWH seems to be the magic number so you would be well under that.

    Im basing most of this on info I obtained quite a while ago so it would be much better for you to contact either the contractor doing your installation or the relevant Govt. Dept. and garner some current factual information. Maybe once you discover a source for it, you could post it up here for anyone else considering the same thing.

    Cheers mate,
    Mal.

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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    This is true, in ACT we are allowed upto 10kw systems before the changes to the tariff system take place.

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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Quote Originally Posted by 775A5E525F330 link=1240751087/23#23 date=1241277756
    Yes KK,
    I do know that under the current Solar Bonus Scheme, the Govt. will pay nearly three times the value of the Net energy that you push into the Grid for the next 20 years or so, so it is not necessary to build a system that would make you fully energy independent in order to benefit from the scheme. I am also fairly certain that the scheme, as it stands, will only benefit consumers who build Solar Power Systems, not systems generating power via any other means.


    Cheers mate,
    Mal.
    I can only speak for the ACT system again but any renewable energy source can go towards the production of tariff bearing power. In theory it would be possible to hook up a big petrol genset and feed that into the grid however it may well cost you more than the tariff payment to generate the power. Further if you are even slightly Urban bound the neighbours may well complain about the noise. Certainly wind power is Ok to feed in however the inverter is different to the Solar one. SMA make both a Sunny boy designed for Solar and a Windy boy (believe it or not) for wind generated power.

  27. #27
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Gday Cruiser... :)

    Yeah, I think most states and territories have their own particular schemes and management strategies that all fall broadly under the guidelines laid down by the Federal Govt.. In QLD though, Im pretty sure that they have limited input credits to that generated only by Solar systems under one of two strategies. One is targeted at remote locations where connection to the grid is impossible or impractical, where a percentage of the power generated (by what ever means) results in some costs reimbursed; the other scheme is limited to that only related to input power from Solar Generation that come under the Federal guidelines. Im not absolutely sure of the exact current details with respect to any of this other than what I researched a few years ago when we were considering the installation of a system.

    Its a very worthwhile thing to do though, for a lot of reasons including economic ones otherwise no-one other than people with significant financial resources would invest in it. We may still go ahead with something but will have to wait now to see whether the revised rebate and bonus schemes will make it affordable for us. As a one time electrical engineer in possession of the knowledge of such systems and the benefits they bring it is very frustrating, to say the least, to not be in a position financially to have taken advantage of the current scheme(s). Over time though, I guess the cost of the hardware for these systems will gradually reduce to a point that economies of scale will put them within the reach of more and more people. Installation costs though will probably become more expensive, so hopefully one will not cancel out the benefits of the other.

    We live in hope.... ;)

    Mal.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    This the best information I can find for the state of QLD
    http://www.cleanenergy.qld.gov.au/solar_bonus_scheme.cfm

    Excerpt:-

    Customers participating in the scheme will be paid 44 cents per kilowatt hour (kWh) for surplus electricity fed into the grid—around three times the current general domestic use tariff of 16.29c/kWh (inc GST as at 1 July 2008).

    The average consumer operating a 1 kilowatt (kW) solar system could save up to 25 per cent on their electricity bill by using electricity generated by the PV system and from payments received from the Solar Bonus Scheme.

    The amount of electricity a customer returns to the grid will depend on how much energy is being consumed while the solar panels are generating power. Customers may be able to maximise their solar bonus by improving the energy efficiency of their home to export more electricity to the grid. This could be achieved by reducing standby power consumption, shifting some tasks to the evening and minimising the use of air-conditioners. Visit the EnergyWise tips section for simple ways to make your home more energy-efficient.

    Also:-
    * have solar PV systems with a capacity of up to 10kVA for single phase power and 30kVA for three-phase power

    Mal
    No mention of wind power it is all (PV) Poly Voltaic
    I cant find any wind power or grid feed schemes for QLD at the moment

    KK

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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Quote Originally Posted by 486C656566665C486C706E6C030 link=1240751087/27#27 date=1241333432

    Mal
    No mention of wind power it is all (PV) Poly Voltaic *
    I cant find any wind power or grid feed schemes for QLD at the moment

    KK
    Photo Voltaic

  30. #30
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Best talk to a few people within the system KK before spending any money though, thats the only point Im trying to get across. When we first looked at doing this, there were limitations to not only the total exported KWH that would be paid but also the type of generation source that would be subsidised under the scheme.

    Best to be careful and positive that you have ALL of the information before making any decisions...

    Mal.

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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Without reading any of the replys I would have to say that the logical thing would be to get solar power setup. Provided your income is low enough the government will pay for all the equipment and all you have to pay for is the installation. Better hurry up though as the offer will be ending soon.

    Justin

  32. #32
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Thanks JB
    The 1 kw solar system was ordered b/4 the cut off date
    Plus I also have Solar hot water

    News reports today of electricity costs sky-rocketing should make people shudder as costs are rising from 16 cents per kw hour to 22 cents per kw hour

    Also from next year our council (BCC) will not control water charges

    KK

  33. #33
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    BTW my father in law and his dad really believe in this alternative energy stuff. My own dad got given a cd once with the blueprints on how to build one of these things. I gave a copy to the father in law. We all know that there is no such thing as perpetual energy but the explanation by the father in law is that it has something to do with being able to tap into some thermodynamic power or something to that description. Interestingly every time he builds something to create free energy he gets sidetracked thinking that he has found some other worth while thing. Therefore my stance on the subject is that I can neither confirm or deny it. I think that makes me fence sitter!!!!

    There are however videos on youtube of these things that make it look as though they are running.

    On a side note I have never believed in perpetual energy(note that thing you are talking about is not only perpetual but generates more than it uses) but there is one circumstance that has me twisted and that is hydrogen. Usually when something burns it changes for quite dramatically but hydrogen is quite different because when it burns it attaches itself to an oxygen cells. So you start out with 2x H and 1xO. When it burns you have exactly the same but in the form of H2O. As there are no byproducts and you are still left with 2 parts of hydrogen, you have the same energy potential as when you started. That to me begs the question of where did the energy come from to make the flame and the light, heat and noise associated?

    I dont know if you can follow my logic there on the hydrogen thing but that is the only thing that leaves the perpetual energy thing up in the air for me.


    Justin

  34. #34
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Yes I was watching a sci/fi program and they said that Hydrogen is the most abundant material in the universe
    The sun uses hydrogen as its primary fuel source

    Perpetual motion may be possible in the future??

    But now in the present time the answer is no as all things invented so far use a material or part the wears down and fails eg a bearing

    I am with you in the fence sitters camp

    I notice that you are in WA
    There is a pilot program approved for a hybrid wave power generation scheme
    http://www.carnegiecorp.com.au/

    KK

  35. #35
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Quote Originally Posted by 1F2026213C3B0A173A2C3930550 link=1240751087/32#32 date=1241792615
    So you start out with 2x H and 1xO.When it burns you have exactly the same but in the form of H2O.As there are no byproducts and you are still left with 2 parts of hydrogen, you have the same energy potential as when you started.That to me begs the question of where did the energy come from to make the flame and the light, heat and noise associated?
    The atoms havent changed, but the bonds between them have. :)


    Java "Bonding with his Gothot" phile

  36. #36
    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Quote Originally Posted by 1F2026213C3B0A173A2C3930550 link=1240751087/32#32 date=1241792615
    ... there is one circumstance that has me twisted and that is hydrogen. Usually when something burns it changes for quite dramatically but hydrogen is quite different because when it burns it attaches itself to an oxygen cells. So you start out with 2x H and 1xO. When it burns you have exactly the same but in the form of H2O. As there are no byproducts and you are still left with 2 parts of hydrogen, you have the same energy potential as when you started. That to me begs the question of where did the energy come from to make the flame and the light, heat and noise associated?
    You actually start off with H2 gas and O2 gas. The atoms are bound together in pairs, called molecules.
    There is energy bound up in the H2 molecules.
    There is energy bound up in the O2 molecule.
    Now let them burn ....
    What happens is 2 x H2 + O2 => 2 x H2O

    However the amount of energy that can be bound up in the 2 H2O molecules produced is less than what was bound up in the reactants - the 2 x H2 molecules and 1 x O2 molecule.
    So we have more energy bound up within the reactants that "can fit" into the final water molecules formed. This is released as the light, heat and noise i.e. the fun parts :-)

    There is a nice enthalpy diagram in the article here that shows this: http://www.clickandlearn.org/chemistry/enthalpy.htm

    Mike





  37. #37
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Ill believe you. Its all above my uneducated mind. It seems there is an answer for everything even if you dont understand it.

    jb

  38. #38
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Would you believe it
    I posted the forms for the solar rebate back today

    I dont know if it will affect me due to the sudden axing of the program by the (ALP) Labor Federal Government

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/09/2593248.htm?section=business

    The $8,000 rebate is being scrapped in favour of a market-driven system of solar credits and the switch-over was expected to be at the end of the month.

    KK

  39. #39
    Super Moderator scoota_gal's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Oh...well, I hope that I got my forms in early enough then. What a joke that all is though...how typical of a Labour government to be in bed with the big corporates... ::)

    well, thats all Ill say on politics... ::)

    Oh..except...

    Woe to the government when our electricity prices go up again... >:(

  40. #40
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Weve just been told (by the QLD Govt) that our electrical energy costs are going to increase by 16% :o. Looks like candles for lighting and small wood heaters for the bedrooms... :(

    Mal.

  41. #41
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    OK an update

    I am a little frustrated
    The application went in back in June 2009

    And not a reply has come yet
    Unless I get a reply stating the application is successful to proceed with the install
    Or if not approved - my $1500 deposit can be returned

    I cant cancel out until I have a judgement or loose my deposit
    I am stuck between a rock & a hard place

    Anyone in the same predicament ?

    KK

  42. #42
    Coffee+carbon=heaven Mono's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    We had our 1kw system installed last week as part of the "Shepparton Goes Solar" initative. Its generating power but until our local electricity supplier installs our 2 way meter we wont receive any credits for power feed back into the grid, hopefully that will happen by the end of the year. :)

  43. #43
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Quote Originally Posted by 694D444447477D694D514F4D220 link=1240751087/40#40 date=1257120340
    I am a little frustrated
    Sounds like its time to go find a desk to pound on. >:(


    Java "Doesnt play nice with bureaucrats" phile

  44. #44
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Update *
    Progress of my Solar Power Generating System

    Our government rebate was approved in full total $8000

    The solar system was installed this week
    Checking on power generation so far by the 6 solar panels is on average 5kw hours per day on the short time it has been in operation

    At times my meter is going backwards when I go to check

    The Sun brand inverter (German made) has a display on day or cumulative power generation

    On my power use account my general electricity use is on average 6KW hours per day

    I can see a big saving based on those figures
    Dependant on the Sunshine and few cloudy days *

    The power supply company still has to fit another meter to calculate the green power sell back price when my system generates more power than we consume

    The current system can have 2 more solar panels fitted and I may upgrade it by adding them in the hope that I may have zero electricity bills

    Photo is a picture of the Solar panels on the roof

    KK


  45. #45
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Nice one KK, Gotta love a $8,000 government handout eh. I got my 1Kw just before Christmas. Cant say its done too much after I ran the ducted 21Kw aircon for most of the summer, but at least the kids and I were cool, and the solar probably reduced the bill a bit.

    Theres also a monitoring system you can buy and install which transmits usage info to your PC for about $300 if your interested.

    My system is a 1.2Kw Latronics & 6 sharp solar panels. Just got in before the rebate was pulled like you and had to wait ages to get it installed. Not sure I got a fantastic deal but better than nothing.

    Anyway enjoy being green. Save the human race I say... the planet will be here for a long time... not sure we will at the rate we are going.

  46. #46
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Power Generation Grid Feed System

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F0200060B0A0E630 link=1240751087/44#44 date=1273734985
    Theres also a monitoring system you can buy and install which transmits usage info to your PC for about $300 if your interested.
    That would be nice to have

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F0200060B0A0E630 link=1240751087/44#44 date=1273734985
    My system is a 1.2Kw Latronics & 6 sharp solar panels.Just got in before the rebate was pulled like you and had to wait ages to get it installed.Not sure I got a fantastic deal but better than nothing.
    The $8000 rebate was my total cost
    No more to pay

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F0200060B0A0E630 link=1240751087/44#44 date=1273734985
    Anyway enjoy being green.Save the human race I say... the planet will be here for a long time... not sure we will at the rate we are going.
    Yes I forgot to include that on my update post as more people participate in such programs the better off the planet will be

    KK



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