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Thread: You, I and our planet.

  1. #1
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    You, I and our planet.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    ** soap box warning **

    With a slowly growing awareness of what we are doing to the planet there are some great (dare I say) life changing publications getting around that are well worth a look.

    Looking after the environment is slowly moving from hairy, unwashed "between jobs" greenies and falling into the laps of "real people"... you and I, our friends, families and suppliers all have a role to play.

    For 30 or 50 years stuff has just come from the supermarket and chain stores, when you need more stuff you go and get it without consideration for the process or the many casualties along the way.

    Anyway... enough preaching from me, the reason for this post was earlier this year I bought an excellent book called:

    Confessions of an Eco Sinner:
    Travels to Find Where My Stuff Comes from
    by: Fred Pearce
    isbn: 1905811101

    It is a very balanced book with a good mixture of science and fuzzies that leaves the reader thinking about the real impact (good and bad) of everyday things we do and use. Fred travels the world to find where his stuff really comes from, he meets farmers, miners, sweatshop workers, business leaders and others from all walks of life and builds a better understanding of the processes and impact... and its not all bad, there are some real eye-opening surprises in the book too. I really recommend buying a copy or borrowing one from your local library (remember those?!?!). While I found myself debating a few facts it really is a great read.

    After banging-on about this book to a mate I was just sent a link to similar topic on You-Tube.

    The Story of Stuff
    by: Annie Leonard.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLBE5QAYXp8

    Its not the same as Freds book but it covers some similar concepts and is in format that suits many people with no time or interest to read. Well worth the 20 minutes it takes to watch and the price of a mouse-click.

    8-)

    **unshaven Andy steps off his recycled soap box now**


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    Senior Member GregJW's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Thanks Andy. Good post.

    Book ordered (you should get it on Beanbay - Other Stuff!). Sounds similar to David Suzukis efforts (same theme, bit different approach).

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    Super Moderator scoota_gal's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    *steps up onto soap box*

    I think that living in the country we can get away from "stuff" a little more and that we are a bit more in tune to what is happening to the planet in regards to the affect stuff has on the environment. No sticking your head in the sand out here, were at the coal face already!

    I also think that not being close to shops and having the fact that you need more stuff everyday rammed down your throats like I see it happening in the city, is a bit of a good thing. Consumerism is something that I am grateful to be away from. However, I wont deny that it reaches out here, just a little less so, I think.

    Ive been reading some publications on organic gardens and the like, in order to investigate the ways to wean myself off the stuff sellers a bit more but my biggest problem with doing it, is the time and effort required to achieve it. What it probably comes down to, is reducing your dependance on stuff as much as you personally can for your situation and hopefully that that will have a postitive, if not small, affect on the planet.

    Just watching the Youtube vid on Stuff, made me think of the recent comments in a certain car magazine about people who have cars that are older than 10 years. Basically, the editor was saying "How dare you have an old car!" Well, all I could think to that was, how dare you have a new car every two years! To me, this comment reeks of coporations behind governments. I know that theyre in the ear of our elected leaders, telling them that those of us who keep our cars, mobile phones, televisions and computers for longer than 5 years are actually the bad ones because were not making them more money! How dare we! So, to make us buy more of their stuff, they will make it difficult for us to drive our old cars, turn off our phone service to switch on another that our phones wont work on and change the signal to watch television...thatll fix us! *::)

    *steps down off soap box*

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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Theres quite a lot of truth in that video. Not many years ago, we seemed to survive very well without replacing our car, mobile, TV, computer, etc every couple of years or so. *Now we are bombarded by ads telling us to update and we will enjoy life better. I am not saying that we should all give up everything and become hippies, but maybe we should slow down and look at where we are headed.

    * oops, is this a soapbox Im standing on?*

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C392E2C011C4B0 link=1253756834/1#1 date=1253760954
    Book ordered
    **blush** I wasnt really trying to bump this up the best sellers list but Im sure you will enjoy it. In fact if you hate it (which will make me feel quite guilty) Ill buy it off you and give it someone else.

    :)

    I took this book on a couple of plane trips to read (in fact I bought it at the airport) and paused when I had the thought that the extra weight of this book on a plane caused "x" amount of extra greenhouse gas emmisions from the plane... pondered more about the amount of fuel that 500g of book would take to cross the country in the air and how much fuel was burnt driving the logs to the paper factory, the paper to the printers, the book to the warehouse, the book to the reseller.... and then woke-up to hear that the plane was about to land. This meant that I would have to continue reading it on the return trip too and thus cause more environmental damage.

    ;D

    ...and I still didnt know the fuel usage per kilo on an airbus flight math or ergo how much less environmental impact a jockey has on a plane to me or how much green house gas tax surcharge a really fat person should pay on top of their flight fees. Which was about the time I thought, damn, need to stop getting distracted with random silly thoughts and read more of the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by 382824243F2A142C2A274B0 link=1253756834/2#2 date=1253783838
    I think that living in the country
    Ahhh... Freds quest went to the country too, the Aussie country in fact and visited a cotton farm as well as some of our mines and smelters. ...but I wont post spoilers.

    Quote Originally Posted by 382824243F2A142C2A274B0 link=1253756834/2#2 date=1253783838
    turn off our phone service to switch on another that our phones wont work on
    I have heard that the CDMA was a far better system in the sticks and a few people I know are totally isolated with their "new improved" phone service.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2A212A3239247E7C4B0 link=1253756834/3#3 date=1253795429
    but maybe we should slow down and look at where we are headed
    Agree!

    Quote Originally Posted by 2A212A3239247E7C4B0 link=1253756834/3#3 date=1253795429
    * oops, is this a soapbox Im standing on?*
    Yes it is a soapbox but its becoming a very "green" one now. Just in this thread its been used without re-engineering 3 times in a row and apart from the fact it was originally made from Amazon old growth rain forest timber as long as we dont burn it to get the new model soapbox and keep on sharing it then I think we are minimising our impact.

    next...

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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Saw the video on stuff a year or so ago and was blown away by the fact that they are consciously putting stuff out here that we can buy for less than what it takes to manufacture or repair said stuff.

    I used to do deliveries for a appliance repair mob, and the fridge mechanic showed me a few tricks the manufacturers use to allow the item to break down within a few years (planned obsolescence). The difference between one particular models domestic and export model was some pvc tape around some copper tubing so that electrolysis would be prevented from occuring between that and the aluminium tubing running alongside it. This led to pinprick holes in the tubing which happened to be buried in the side of the fridge adjacent to the area twixt freezer and fridge compartments making it the most difficult place to access for repairs, thus making it uneconomical to fix = buy a new fridge. You guessed it...export model gets the tape.

    Unprotected light compartment sitting underneath condensation point which in time will lead to shorting out, little fire will start but go out cos of lack of oxygen thus rendering the fridge stuffed.

    The stuff video...I cringe at the packaging for kids toys, the amount of plastic (up to three layers) (and thus toxic waste produced) is obscene. A 25 dollar toaster breaks down, we throw it away and buy a new one. The cost of parts + labour prohibits getting it fixed. A 200 dollar ghetto blaster breaks within two years..usually something in the CD compartment goes first...get another one.

    What can I do?? My wife and kids think Im a nutter because I recycle Christmas wrapping paper...carefully peeling of the tape. I usually only buy second hand toys (when my young bloke was younger), console games and cds. I pay to repair my PC rather upgrade to a new one. I dony buy bottled water...biggest gyp going.

    What can I also do...what is to stop us supplying the skills and services we have between us to each other, our neighbours, families and friends. If we say "I will give you my time and skill set as a gift, all you have to do is pay for the actual cost of any parts required". A sense of community will develop, dollars will be saved, and we will play some small part in reducing waste (both in stuff and dollars) produced.

    Regarding the old growth amazon rain forest timber soapbox, when wear and tear has caused it to become less than visually pleasant, my old man has the timber working skills to bring it back to as good as new.

    *hands back this beautifully hand crafted soap box

    next.......

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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    If weight were really an issue on airflight fuel consumption to that extent:

    - They would weigh you and charge for your passage accordingly, and the WCs at the airport before the ticket agents would be full of folks taking a dump to save a few dollars on their tickets.

    - Instead of flight insurance, there would be vending machines for laxatives.

    - People would ship their children by UPS (Insured if they were attached to them dearly).

    - Thong underwear would be the standard flight garb (and nothing else).


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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Great to know im buying my coffee from someone who is conscious of the impact they are making - Cheers Andy :)

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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 505C594D54584F4F580D0B3D0 link=1253756834/5#5 date=1253830348
    What can I do?? My wife and kids think Im a nutter because I recycle Christmas wrapping paper...carefully peeling of the tape. I usually only buy second hand toys (when my young bloke was younger), console games and cds. I pay to repair my PC rather upgrade to a new one. I dony buy bottled water...biggest gyp going.
    Sorry but i agree with them. However i agree on the bottled water comment though. Repairing your PC is OK in the 1st 12 - 24mnths but after that it is a false economy as it impinges on time due to its slowness but then again you need to establish the value of your time.

    Do i worry about what my footprint on the environment is?? No because if i did then i wouldnt be working in IT and should be living in some bark humpy on the banks of the murray (without water) living totally off the land. Then again compared to the job i have at the moment perhaps that is a pleasing alternative ;D. Perhaps its time for a change :-/
    <end rant> :)

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    Super Moderator scoota_gal's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2B26252B490 link=1253756834/8#8 date=1253881075
    ... living in some bark humpy on the banks of the murray (without water)
    Id just like to point out that the Murray actually has plenty of water in it...contrary to popular belief... ;)

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F22212F4D0 link=1253756834/8#8 date=1253881075
    Do i worry about what my footprint on the environment is?? No....
    While I respect your honesty it makes me sad that even partly in jest you could think like that.

    While Ill be here for at most another 50 odd years, my kids will be here 20 or 30 after that and their kids will prob be here at the turn of the next century. What will be there for them if everyone thought that changing their footprint was too hard?

    In fact, if the industry you work in has that big a mark on the environment then all the more reason to think about changing some of YOUR processes to improve it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F22212F4D0 link=1253756834/8#8 date=1253881075
    Repairing your PC is OK in the 1st 12 - 24mnths but after that it is a false economy as it impinges on time due to its slowness
    Garbage. That sounds like typical sales drivel, not based on actual fact. After 20 years in the IT industry I could probally count on two hands the number of people I have met that needed something better than a 5-10 year old machine for their daily work and those mostly would have been graphics type workstations that crunch big numbers.

    Most of the people that think they need a faster desktop machine are often just using badly written or poorly designed software.

    One of the most useful PCs in my life is the one at the Snobbery, it runs the Roast Monitor for roasting and a web-browser. I think off the top of my head its a P3 (but might even be a P2) and runs a 15" CRT. It was free, salvaged prior to going into land-fill (after someone else upgraded) and it would work exactly the same if it was the latest-greatest $3000 machine.

    The adminstraion side (back-end) of BeanBay is a web application, it runs on the server and keeps track of everones orders, their payments and the roasting status among other things. All I need is a web browser to access it and until Internet infrastructure is faster than bus speed in the PC then just about any old clunker will work fine.

    The Roast Monitor is (mostly) Java based, runs real time on nearly any PC and has a very low minimum hardware requirement.

    Besides, the staple of most office IT requirements is a spread sheet, a word processor, email and web browser and all those have run faster than people can type for a longtime now.

    I understand people wanting a better screen or a bigger hard drive (both can be added to an older machine) but can you let me know why people in your circle require the latest machine every couple of years?


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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4C5C50504B5E60585E533F0 link=1253756834/9#9 date=1253884345
    Quote Originally Posted by 2B26252B490 link=1253756834/8#8 date=1253881075
    ... living in some bark humpy on the banks of the murray (without water) *
    Id just like to point out that the Murray actually has plenty of water in it...contrary to popular belief... ;)
    I could quite happily live in a old bark humpy on the banks of any free flowing river...mind you, I cant stand people and civilisation anyways.

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by 5D50535D3F0 link=1253756834/8#8 date=1253881075
    Quote Originally Posted by 505C594D54584F4F580D0B3D0 link=1253756834/5#5 date=1253830348
    What can I do?? My wife and kids think Im a nutter because I recycle Christmas wrapping paper...carefully peeling of the tape. I usually only buy second hand toys (when my young bloke was younger), console games and cds. I pay to repair my PC rather upgrade to a new one. I dony buy bottled water...biggest gyp going. *
    Sorry but i agree with them. However i agree on the bottled water comment though. Repairing your PC is OK in the 1st 12 - 24mnths but after that it is a false economy as it impinges on time due to its slowness but then again you need to establish the value of your time.
    I never said I wasnt agreeing with them either * ;D

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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 51414D4D56437D45434E220 link=1253756834/9#9 date=1253884345
    Id just like to point out that the Murray actually has plenty of water in it...contrary to popular belief... Wink
    Its still in trouble though - especially around the Murray Lakes area. Were starting to enter the high evaporation period too with risk of pollutants. This is what is behind the water buy-back scheme from what I understand.

    One of the biggest problems these days is the environmental vs economical debatee.g. we cant stop logging because jobs will be lost; people need to keep buying new appliances as the economy relies on the flow of cash, etc.
    The two are not mutually exclusive. The best thing the government can do is get opposing parties together and compromise.
    No one knows for sure how well our planetcan cope with what we are doing to it but we can at least try to reduce our impact. I think we are trying. Hopefully, not too late.

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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 557A706D140 link=1253756834/10#10 date=1253887454
    While I respect your honesty it makes me sad that even partly in jest you could think like that.

    While Ill be here for at most another 50 odd years, my kids will be here 20 or 30 after that and their kids will prob be here at the turn of the next century.What will be there for them if everyone thought that changing their footprint was too hard?

    In fact, if the industry you work in has that big a mark on the environment then all the more reason to think about changing some of YOUR processes to improve it.
    Changing footprints is in some cases too hard and not worth the effort, it just depends on the context this is applied to, do i worry to much about what my kids or my kids kids will be faced with in 50 years?? Nope, it just doesnt interest me that much, probably a sad fact to many but a reality to many many more on this planet. Frankly i have more important issues to deal with rather than something that may or may not happen in varying degrees that no one can actually determin yet. Do i do things that i can simply do such as recycling etc etc? Yep i do but i dont go out of my way to reduce my personal environmental foot print unless it can save me time or $$. It takes money and effort to achieve these changes and personally anything other full commitment and living like a bush dweller off the land is not achieving the outcome. Rather like a vegetarian that hates cows being killed for food but happily wears leather shoes.

    Quote Originally Posted by 557A706D140 link=1253756834/10#10 date=1253887454
    Garbage.That sounds like typical sales drivel, not based on actual fact.After 20 years in the IT industry I could probally count on two hands the number of people I have met that needed something better than a 5-10 year old machine for their daily work and those mostly would have been graphics type workstations that crunch big numbers.

    Most of the people that think they need a faster desktop machine are often just using badly written or poorly designed software.

    One of the most useful PCs in my life is the one at the Snobbery, it runs the Roast Monitor for roasting and a web-browser.I think off the top of my head its a P3 (but might even be a P2) and runs a 15" CRT.It was free, salvaged prior to going into land-fill (after someone else upgraded) and it would work exactly the same if it was the latest-greatest $3000 machine.

    The adminstraion side (back-end) of BeanBay is a web application, it runs on the server and keeps track of everones orders, their payments and the roasting status among other things.All I need is a web browser to access it and until Internet infrastructure is faster than bus speed in the PC then just about any old clunker will work fine.

    The Roast Monitor is (mostly) Java based, runs real time on nearly any PC and has a very low minimum hardware requirement.

    Besides, the staple of most office IT requirements is a spread sheet, a word processor, email and web browser and all those have run faster than people can type for a longtime now.

    I understand people wanting a better screen or a bigger hard drive (both can be added to an older machine) but can you let me know why people in your circle require the latest machine every couple of years?
    You make think its crap but i would count you in the minority, its all based on context. I am not a sales person and if i can delay an upgrade of IT then i will but if a business takes on another or perhaps different application that involves more computing resources, this then starts the process of the PC upgrade/replacement. You upgrade the software of standard machines or environments across your network to make use of new features - keeping existing old machines can be a bottleneck to the take up of that technology causing potential failure of the project, but again it depends on the context.

    Here are some examples;
    We are basically a MS software house in that 99% of all software used is MS. We use sharepoint 2007 and office 2007, if i was using 5 - 10 yr old PCs in our environment then they wouldnt run office 2007 and the integration we have between the latest office and sharepoint would be non existant meaning the role out of sharepoint 2007 would be a waste of time. The business process that run as a result of this integration would fail and it would cost the company more in labour to do the same work.

    Another
    I had a staff member in perth order two PCs but no screens as the CRT screens still work. My response was "sorry no can do we cant purchase a PC without a screen". Why?? because i dont want to be dealing with the crap perpetuated by using outdated technology, while yes it works but its not appropriate when you are trying to standardise the environment in order to maintain consistency and cheaper support. Plus we havent purchased CRT monitors since 2004 and they would be in poor shape. Lets face it, you will get better effort out of your general staff population by giving them better equipment and not leaving them on old technology junk just because you can. Its all about context. It takes more to support older equipment than new.

    Do you keep laptops longer than 3 years? Hell no as their breakdown cycle starts to increase at about the 3.5 year mark, this is a known fact. PCs we keep for 4 years and even that in some cases is a little long, do we throw them out? No currently they go back to the rental but i would prefer that they be given away to those in need as a corporate gesture of good will but thats an argument i need to have with finance.

    You cant compare the pc you salvaged for the snobbery with a coporate environment they dont even come close.

    I stand by my comment that IT has a big footprint, while yes the aim is to virtualise and minimise the amount of power and resoures we use, IT will always remain a reasonable component of a companies carbon footprint and of course it depends on what industry that company is in.

    Of course new components can be added to old machines but there comes a point when this is a false economy and you start throwing good money after bad. In this fact IT is not really any different to cars or machinery, there is a point at which the item becomes too expensive to mantain.

    Machines are likely to be kept and upgraded in the SOHO or home environment as the cost is more direct, once you get a user base of 300+ then its totally different. Depending on the age, i may upgrade my sons PC rather than replace. Is this a double standard?? Of course it is because i actually have to pay to replace my sons PC where i am not paying for the company to change their equipment.

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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4B415443434C585E2D0 link=1253756834/12#12 date=1253915188
    Quote Originally Posted by 51414D4D56437D45434E220 link=1253756834/9#9 date=1253884345
    Id just like to point out that the Murray actually has plenty of water in it...contrary to popular belief... Wink
    Its still in trouble though - especially around the Murray Lakes area. Were starting to enter the high evaporation period too with risk of pollutants. This is what is behind the water buy-back scheme from what I understand.
    I think its the Darling that is in a much worse situation from most perspectives, given that most of the feeder systems are dammed and allow hardly a trickle of water to reach it.... :(

    Mal.

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    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 282526284A0 link=1253756834/13#13 date=1253975213
    Plus we havent purchased CRT monitors since 2004 and they would be in poor shape. Lets face it, you will get better effort out of your general staff population by giving them better equipment and not leaving them on old technology junk just because you can. Its all about context. It takes more to support older equipment than new.
    I have to step in here.
    Ive never had to replace a monitor because it was faulty.
    Ive either still got them or theyve been passed on to someone whos needed a replacement.
    Ive always wondered why I see so many old monitors in council cleanups.

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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    TG - You must be the lucky one. We have had a number go Kaputt over the years.
    While yes the old CRT units definitely have a longer life than an LCD we find that their images are not as crisp and comfortable on the end user as they once were.
    Also they cost more to run than LCD units.
    The ultimate aim in everything when replacing equipment is to ensure as much as possible that it can be passed off to others to make use of and not get thrown to landfill.

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    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    I dont think computer equipment would dare fail on me.

    My newest screen is LCD but a few years old now.
    Whenever my son asks if Id like a new bigger one I ask back "what for?".
    He was only saying the other day how he likes the crt screen hes hooked up to my new (2nd hand) PC. It used to be his and is one of his favourites.

    Some of my equipment may burn a bit more power as youve mentioned but I make up for it elsewhere.

    The family has been having a go at me for almost 30 years for asking them to turn unused lights off.
    Before my council introduced recycling bins I was saving up empty milk and shampoo bottles for three years and today I pay for an extra recycling bin because I fill 1.5 per week.

    I could do better with water recycling but havent automated that yet and would install a rainwater tank if I could scrape a few dollars together.

    Some little things arent hard to do. You said you already recycle.
    Have you swapped to energy efficient light globes yet?
    I was an early adopter. I didnt change them all at once but when the latest smaller ones came along a stocked up and now ASAIK most of the lights in the house have been changed over except for odd little ones like those in the range hood.

    I recently downsized my car from my old 4.0 litre 1994 Falcon to a 1.8l Astra (2000 model).

    The Falcon had reached the point where even its regular 6 monthly services had extended its life as far as economically viable.
    Things were starting to break down faster.

    I could do better but I think I do more than a lot of others, my wife and kids included.

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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 764A574C464750454D46220 link=1253756834/17#17 date=1254019882
    Have you swapped to energy efficient light globes yet?
    No and I dont know that i really want to but i guess will be forced to soon, i have one in the study but i find the quality of the light compared to say a 100w traditional globe frankly - CRAP.

    We use the low voltage dichroic globes everywhere else and have some LED versions of these and again i am not convinced the quality of the light is all that good.
    While the dichroic globes are good they are not much in the way of power savers but i too constantly have to tell the rest of the family to turn lights off.

    We recently bought a new dishwasher and the major requirement for me was the water rating and managed to get one down on the 11L rating, the environment wasnt really a consideration but more that fact that soon i think we will be paying much much more for water.

    I havent done the water tank think as its going to cost too much money to connect to the toilets etc and at this stage the return on investment just isnt there. We may just put one in for watering the garden over the summer but my attitude is that if it doesnt survive then tough luck

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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4E43404E2C0 link=1253756834/18#18 date=1254020729
    Quote Originally Posted by 764A574C464750454D46220 link=1253756834/17#17 date=1254019882
    Have you swapped to energy efficient light globes yet?
    No and I dont know that i really want to but i guess will be forced to soon, i have one in the study but i find the quality of the light compared to say a 100w traditional globe frankly - CRAP.

    We use the low voltage dichroic globes everywhere else and have some LED versions of these and again i am not convinced the quality of the light is all that good.
    While the dichroic globes are good they are not much in the way of power savers but i too constantly have to tell the rest of the family to turn lights off.

    We recently bought a new dishwasher and the major requirement for me was the water rating and managed to get one down on the 11L rating, the environment wasnt really a consideration but more that fact that soon i think we will be paying much much more for water.

    I havent done the water tank think as its going to cost too much money to connect to the toilets etc and at this stage the return on investment just isnt there. We may just put one in for watering the garden over the summer but my attitude is that if it doesnt survive then tough luck
    We try to do our bit....

    However many things are nothing more than smoke and mirrors and cost shifting.. With teh end result that many get a warm glow feeling that they are doing some good; while in fact, the actual carbon usage has been offset by the manufacturing... But as it is done in another Country... It does not get counted / included and thus the real picture is no better and infact can be worse...

    SOLAR panels are one of the worse and in my opinion should be banned around the world until they come up with a better method to manufacture.....

    At the end of the day it is robbing Peter to pay Paul... But hey... Ya can not tell some people..

    For those that wish to disagree... Do some REAL research on the cost and impact of making solar panels and then take a cement pill and harden up...

    Wind power and use of the sun is great, but it needs to be fully investigated and focused on real savings and not a $$$ value on goods and services; with out taking into account the REAL costs to the enviournment..

    We as a consumer society are just too short sighted...

    Now... I must go and replace my kitchen utilities, phone, PC, trade in my car as it 6 months old and if I have some $$$ left over look at a new GRinder ;D

    Love to all ;) ::)

  21. #21
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Ive lost a few plants but thats the way it goes I suppose.

    The coffee plants get priority these days.

    The "lawn" never gets watered unless its grey water that Ive bothered to carry with a bucket.

    Connecting a tank to the toilets and for some garden use would eventually pay for itself.
    My roof catches heaps of rainwater but the upfront cost is prohibitive atm.


  22. #22
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.


    Quote Originally Posted by 393437395B0 link=1253756834/13#13 date=1253975213
    Changing footprints is in some cases too hard and not worth the effort
    Sadly its apparent that its not worth [s]your[/s] effort. I think its worth mine and for the sake of the place I live and the people I love I really hope that attitude is held by the minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by 393437395B0 link=1253756834/13#13 date=1253975213
    do i worry to much about what my kids or my kids kids will be faced with in 50 years?? Nope, it just doesn’t interest me that much
    That is possibly the most selfish thing I have ever seen posted on CS.

    Quote Originally Posted by 393437395B0 link=1253756834/13#13 date=1253975213
    i dont go out of my way to reduce my personal environmental foot print unless it can save me time or $$
    ...and this is the second most. It reeks of the me! me! me! generation. Very sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by 393437395B0 link=1253756834/13#13 date=1253975213
    anything other full commitment and living like a bush dweller off the land is not achieving the outcome.
    I have some DDT that you can use in your garden, some asbestos brake pads for your car and some lead based paint to splash around your house.

    Surely the forced restriction of the above dangerous items has made you and your children’s lives safer. Why do you have to wait for a government department to mandate their ban? Cant you show the initiative and do something proactive now to make things better?

    Walking into the supermarket you can buy an apple wrapped in plastic. Would you buy it or buy one from the green grocer out of a box? The same goes for lettuce! I want to meet the people that think that buying a plastic bag of cut lettuce saves any amount of time or money... I mean, seriously, lettuce is pretty easy to process at home!

    Quote Originally Posted by 393437395B0 link=1253756834/13#13 date=1253975213
    You make think its crap
    Yes, in my 20 year industry experience I do think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by 393437395B0 link=1253756834/13#13 date=1253975213
    if a business takes on another or perhaps different application that involves more computing resources, this then starts the process of the PC upgrade/replacement.
    Yes, if it was written badly or deployed in the wrong way.

    Why would you install the new application on the desktop? Thin clients are cheap, rarely breakdown as they have no (or little) moving parts and all your upgrades (and backups etc) can happen in a central place.

    Upgrade the server or add another machine to the cluster, dont replace your 300 desktop PCs every few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by 393437395B0 link=1253756834/13#13 date=1253975213
    We are basically a MS software house in that 99% of all software used is MS
    That could at least part of the problem. A company who exists because their bloatware needs ever increasing power to run the next version and the marketing might to tell you that the next version has a pile of features that you "need"... even if your users never use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by 393437395B0 link=1253756834/13#13 date=1253975213
    We use sharepoint 2007 and office 2007, if i was using 5 - 10 yr old PCs in our environment then they wouldn’t run office 2007
    So can you continue to use an older version that has less hardware resource requirements or can you find another product that does the same job (or better) as a web based application that just needs a browser to access it?

    Or once again, if the business cannot exist without the latest version then installing it once on a server and using thin clients to access it would also make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by 393437395B0 link=1253756834/13#13 date=1253975213
    You cant compare the pc you salvaged for the snobbery with a corporate environment they don’t even come close.
    Sorry, that wasn’t my intention. I was trying to make the point that in my world, one of the most functional and useful computers happens to be an old stinker that was salvaged and replacing it to the latest greatest because the number on the calendar changed would not make it function any better than it currently does.

    I have other computers too. The one at home that Im using to type this on is a 5+ year old P4, runs office 2007 perfectly along with fat apps like Photoshop and is also our HTPC, media centre, DVD player/burner etc. It doesn’t need replacing but when it does a baremetal restore from a nightly image will mean that its back and running on new (or newer) hardware quickly and easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by 393437395B0 link=1253756834/13#13 date=1253975213
    where i am not paying for the company to change their equipment.
    AAARRRGGGHHHHH.
    Yes you are paying and that was the point of this thread. You dont pay in direct dollars out of your pocket but you are paying and the true cost might be far higher than you can see.

    I would never expect to be able to change your thoughts and opinions but I would love to know that at some point in the future you would at least consider the wider impact of your decisions in the current mix of business need, cost and justification process that you follow.

    eg: My previous random example of thin clients. The effort of looking at MS terminal server in a Win2008 cluster of virtual machines to serve your 300+ desktops might just make financial and environmental sense.

    ...Then we all win. MS sell you more software, your users get the latest greatest features that they will never be bothered to learn or use, you get easy to deploy/manage/service client machines, your business bean-counters will see a bottom line improvement and as a resulting casualty eventually the environment impact will be less when you avoid the next 300 machine upgrade.


  23. #23
    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7659534E370 link=1253756834/4#4 date=1253802507
    I took this book on a couple of plane trips to read (in fact I bought it at the airport) and paused when I had the thought that the extra weight of this book on a plane caused "x" amount of extra greenhouse gas emmisions from the plane... pondered more about the amount of fuel that 500g of book would take to cross the country in the air and how much fuel was burnt driving the logs to the paper factory, the paper to the printers, the book to the warehouse, the book to the reseller.... and then woke-up to hear that the plane was about to land.This meant that I would have to continue reading it on the return trip too and thus cause more environmental damage.

    Grin

    ...and I still didnt know the fuel usage per kilo on an airbus flight math or ergo how much less environmental impact a jockey has on a plane to me or how much green house gas tax surcharge a really fat person should pay on top of their flight fees.Which was about the time I thought, damn, need to stop getting distracted with random silly thoughts and read more of the book.
    Some years ago, I used to work for an airline, and this IS a seriously considered issue.
    I could bang on about it for ages but in my usual fashion, I favour the slightly humorous over the serious.
    At one stage whilst working there, they had done a study that came back with some cost saving estimates per year if they managed to reduce on board weight by 100-150kg per flight. It was some astronomical figure (probably hugely overinflated). This led to all manner of things being reviewed with the main target being catering. In the end, the main recommendation was reducing (or completely removing on some flights) .... ice.
    I did comment to my boss that I should get a bonus every year from the company based on the fact that every time I did not fly on one of our planes, I was saving the company money. I then suggested that I could double my contribution by flying on the competitors planes and thus costing them money. For some reason, I did not get the bonus.

    No doubt, this whole exercise was inspired by Robert Crandall, but I found it amusing at the time.

    As for the airlines charging by weight, its probably going to happen on the cheaper airlines at some stage. It always reminds me of the part of Hitch-Hikers guide to the Galaxy talking about the planet Bethselamin:

    A fabulously beautiful planet, Bethselamin is now so worried about the cumulative erosion by ten billion visiting tourists a year that any net imbalance between the amount you eat and the amount you excrete whilst on the planet is surgically removed from your body weight when you leave: so every time you go to the lavatory there it is vitally important to get a receipt.
    Brett (Just back from O/S and now feeling very guilty).

  24. #24
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D6A7F696472543A3232320B0 link=1253756834/22#22 date=1254062827
    I favour the slightly humorous over the serious.
    ...which you do well and this time it was both funny and interesting.

    Ice? I have flown a fair bit and not until now did I realise that I cannot remember the last time I had a drink with ice.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D6A7F696472543A3232320B0 link=1253756834/22#22 date=1254062827
    Brett (Just back from O/S and now feeling very guilty).
    Welcome back! Nah, dont feel guilty. Air travel is a great form of transport (although I do get annoyed at the obsene amount of packaging on simple things in-flight and their lack of a recycle bin for all their rubbish).

    The purpose of the post wasnt to inflict guilt, its really more about being aware of your usage/footprint/waste and when given a choice, choose a better option than you did last time.

    Baby steps... if we all change a little then the difference can be great.

  25. #25
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E73777B761A0 link=1253756834/14#14 date=1253975898
    I think its the Darling that is in a much worse situation from most perspectives, given that most of the feeder systems are dammed and allow hardly a trickle of water to reach it....
    Yes, youre right Mal. A couple of years ago now, but the ABC1 doco "Two Men and a Tinnie" was quite telling about the state of the Murray and moreso of the Darling. They also showed the Murray lakes section too.

    I hear they want to build more dams in the Darling Downs to help with Toowoombas dwindling supply or cater for the growth in the Highfields area. Do the rivers there flow into the Macintyre-Darling system (well, the ones with water in them)?

  26. #26
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7B716473737C686E1D0 link=1253756834/24#24 date=1254178749
    I hear they want to build more dams in the Darling Downs to help with Toowoombas dwindling supply or cater for the growth in the Highfields area.
    I think youre right there Steve.... Theyre in pretty dire straights though, less than 10% water volume total for all existing reservoirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7B716473737C686E1D0 link=1253756834/24#24 date=1254178749
    Do the rivers there flow into the Macintyre-Darling system (well, the ones with water in them)?
    Yep, I think most of em end up flowing into that system....

    Mal.

  27. #27
    Senior Member GregJW's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Our river systems are in a sorry state right across the country. Only took us a bit over 200 years. :(

    Around my way, we have rivers and creeks suddenly going dry. Apparently it has nothing to do with the coal mining thats being carried out directly beneath them.

  28. #28
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 725F5B575A360 link=1253756834/25#25 date=1254218643
    Theyre in pretty dire straights though, less than 10% water volume total for all existing reservoirs.
    Hows Warwick going? Its the Condamine there isnt it?

    Quote Originally Posted by 714453517C61360 link=1253756834/26#26 date=1254218986
    Our river systems are in a sorry state right across the country. Only took us a bit over 200 years. *
    Given that we have only been recording climate stats for the last 150 years in Australia, Im a little hesitant to say were in terminal decline - yet (I know thats not what you are claiming).

    It could turn out to be our worst ever drought (on record) but the optimist in me hopes that natural forces will come into play and rescue us from a somewhat dire situation. Then, when we emerge from it, well know a bit more about living in, and looking after, this wonderful country.
    <Pass another soap box will ya, this ones worn out>

    But if Im wrong, then NZ is a nice place and climate change may allow coffee production there *:-/.

    PS I see youve got a new avatar there Greg. Did you lash out on a Tele or are you just opting for a more electric persona?

  29. #29
    Senior Member GregJW's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5C564354545B4F493A0 link=1253756834/27#27 date=1254222033
    But if Im wrong, then NZ is a nice place and climate change may allow coffee production there.
    ;D Probably shouldnt laugh, but Im picturing bean bay in 20 years - NZ Mt Cook Estate, or maybe even further south - Vinson Massif Supremo.

    PS I see youve got a new avatar there Greg. Did you lash out on a Tele or are you just opting for a more electric persona? *
    Bit of both, Steve - Ive got a more electric / rock project going at present and my old electrics wouldnt quite cut it so I HAD to get a new Tele. *::) Loving it and feeling more electric, so a change of avatar was required. (Sounds a familiar upgadeitis scenario, eh [s]Guitar[/s] Coffee Snobs?) *;)

  30. #30
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 526770725F42150 link=1253756834/28#28 date=1254226190
    or maybe even further south - Vinson Massif Supremo
    ;D That would make a nice blend with 10% Ross shelf Robusta


    Quote Originally Posted by 7D485F5D706D3A0 link=1253756834/28#28 date=1254226190
    my old electrics wouldnt quite cut it so I HAD to get a new Tele. *
    Of course - upgraditis isnt confined to coffee equipment.
    Nice - what is it. An American vintage series?

    Anyway, back on topic, I hope you are planting trees to offset the C02 released when you crank up the amp *;D. Of course, I doubt youd be turning it all the way to 11 on an acoustic/electric mix track. 8-)

  31. #31
    Senior Member GregJW's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    To save going too far O/T, PM sent, Steve.

    Quote Originally Posted by 404A5F4848475355260 link=1253756834/29#29 date=1254261178
    That would make a nice blend with 10% Ross shelf Robusta
    You mean Ross Sea? ;D :(


  32. #32
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 656F7A6D6D627670030 link=1253756834/27#27 date=1254222033
    Hows Warwick going? Its the Condamine there isnt it?
    Yes mate, thats right....

    Its not too bad up here. We live on the Eastern side of Warwick and our water is sourced from a spring fed reservoir called Connelly Dam. It always seems to have plenty of water in it, of quite good quality too as it happens. The rest of Warwick and quite a few other major centres, some even quite distant to us, get their water from a much more significant reservoir called Leslie Dam. Connelly Dam looks like a duck pond by comparison.

    Both impoundments are quite respectable at the moment as a result of regular decent rains earlier this year and last year. Neither tap into the Condamine though which flows through our region unimpeded. I think this changes further downstream of us though, towards St.George and past there. Not the least of which is the "Cubby Station" impoundment, which is huge and certainly significantly larger than all the other reservoirs combined.

    Mal.

  33. #33
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    Re: INTERESTING VID...

    as a side note to this did anyone catch Landline today on ABC1 it was about the "use of water" in agriculture etc

    research was showing that a cup of coffee took about 140 liters of water to make each cup thats seed (plant) -> cup

    beef was about 15000 litres water per kilo......
    peanut MMs were about 1700L of water per packet !!!
    jar dolmio tomato sauce was 7L

    the program was more about figuring out if crops in some areas of Australia were putting to much pressure on water. EG beef on the Murry river area might be bad, where sugar cane in Tully QLD would be fine. So depending on where the coffee is grown may have no real inpact on water supplies but may have if grown in water scarce areas.

    was an interesting program the 140L for coffee was interesting if you think how much coffee is used daily....... thats a lot of water!!!

  34. #34
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: INTERESTING VID...

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D616865656C000 link=1263023640/9#9 date=1263181546
    research was showing that a cup of coffee took about 140 liters of water to make each cup thats seed (plant) -> cup
    What about backflushing and washing the cup?

  35. #35
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    Re: INTERESTING VID...

    Quote Originally Posted by 704C514A404156434B40240 link=1263023640/10#10 date=1263183712
    backflushing ??
    whats that?


    edit: I just went and watched a few more coffee "fair trade" utube vids and after thinking a bit more about AMs OP it has got me thinking a bit more about the whole "pay a bit more for legal crops solution"

    must say thanks to Andy and the faircrack project, not that i buy a lot of coffee beans but good to know at when i do a small amount heads of to hopefully help the ones on the far end.......

    Leeham

  36. #36
    Senior Member Luke_G's Avatar
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    Re: INTERESTING VID...

    In most countries the coffee is grown without the aid of irrigation and the only water used is in the processing methods.

    I assume that the vast majority of this coffee-water usage is based apon the instant coffee world where the coffee is brewed once at the factory and again at the home....silly instant drinkers.

    And though its definately not a good thing...the water in most cases is either recycled back onto farms or dumped into water streams. In some countries its process with the left over plant matter as a fuel.

    So while it MAY be correct that an average coffee uses 140 litres of water to make, that water is not gone forever as a result.

  37. #37
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: INTERESTING VID...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4B726C625840070 link=1263023640/12#12 date=1263188496
    that water in not gone forever
    No water has ever been lost it just gets recycled.
    You are probably drinking water thats been through a dinosaur.

  38. #38
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: INTERESTING VID...

    Quote Originally Posted by 665A475C565740555D56320 link=1263023640/13#13 date=1263190210
    Quote Originally Posted by 4B726C625840070 link=1263023640/12#12 date=1263188496
    that water in not gone forever
    No water has ever been lost it just gets recycled.
    You are probably drinking water thats been through a dinosaur.
    Agree, but in already arid areas the rate of water consumption is relevant, which makes crop and/or livestock selection more important, eg. cattle farming generates value to our economy but at what cost to the soil/environment?

    Do we have a new topic here called conservation?


  39. #39
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    Re: INTERESTING VID...

    Dennis is on the mark its about what water is used for, the program was MORE about where and what water should be used for

    many products also have an embedded water content that may be being "taken" from one area to another something like oranges in Aust from USA etc

    its easy to say the water is "recycled" but is it fit for recycling onto other food crops / fish / human consumption ???

    i guess the WFTO would need to show that growing coffee / fruit "IS" better than growing drug crops, it might actually be better for those areas to grow drug crops..... someone will anyway

    anyway its and interesting argument in both the OP and the water issue IMO

    Leeham

  40. #40
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: INTERESTING VID...

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C2D2626213B480 link=1263023640/14#14 date=1263190701
    Agree, but in already arid areas the rate of water consumption is relevant, which makes crop and/or livestock selection more important, eg. cattle farming generates value to our economy but at what cost to the soil/environment?
    Agreed and white Australians have been making that mistake since they arrived and just settled into farming like in the old country.

  41. #41
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: INTERESTING VID...

    Quote Originally Posted by 64454E4E4953200 link=1263023640/14#14 date=1263190701
    Agree
    Quote Originally Posted by 7448554E444552474F44200 link=1263023640/16#16 date=1263191991
    Agreed
    I really worry when that happens. ;D

    Quote Originally Posted by 4D414845454C200 link=1263023640/15#15 date=1263191509
    anyway its and interesting argument in both the OP and the water issue IMO
    We [humans] really have done a fine job of stuffing things up hey Leeham? But dont despair. If I do my bit and you do yours, I really do believe, though it sounds smarmy, that we can make a positive difference. And as youve already pointed out, FairCrack is a living example!

    ps. If you want to make me happy, for starters, dont use red type on a green background! ::)



  42. #42
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    [postsmovedhere1] 9 [postsmovedhere2] General Coffee Related... [move by] Javaphile.

  43. #43
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Similar topic, not quite off topic yet...


    A movie that we watched the other night.

    The Age Of Stupid.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1300563/

    Worth a look if if this sort of thing interests you. 8-)

    (Bolb can give it a miss though) ::)

  44. #44
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    I must admit that I am DEEPLY WORRIED that this film has been praised both by the media and by politicians. :D 8-)

    Greg

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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 333421373A2C0A646C6C6C550 link=1253756834/22#22 date=1254062827
    Some years ago, I used to work for an airline, and this IS a seriously considered issue.
    I could bang on about it for ages but in my usual fashion, I favour the slightly humorous over the serious.
    At one stage whilst working there, they had done a study that came back with some cost saving estimates per year if they managed to reduce on board weight by 100-150kg per flight. It was some astronomical figure (probably hugely overinflated). This led to all manner of things being reviewed with the main target being catering. In the end, the main recommendation was reducing (or completely removing on some flights) .... ice.
    I did comment to my boss that I should get a bonus every year from the company based on the fact that every time I did not fly on one of our planes, I was saving the company money. I then suggested that I could double my contribution by flying on the competitors planes and thus costing them money. For some reason, I did not get the bonus.
    Only now just come across this topic. I remember some years ago when i also worked for an airline. (Ansett :() i was reading somewhere that JAL (JAPAN AIRLINES) had at the time the cleanest fleet of aircraft in the world and this in turn saved them millions in fuel costs. Less drag etc.

  46. #46
    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 013423217277460 link=1253756834/44#44 date=1263360322
    Quote Originally Posted by 333421373A2C0A646C6C6C550 link=1253756834/22#22 date=1254062827
    Some years ago, I used to work for an airline, and this IS a seriously considered issue.
    I could bang on about it for ages but in my usual fashion, I favour the slightly humorous over the serious.
    At one stage whilst working there, they had done a study that came back with some cost saving estimates per year if they managed to reduce on board weight by 100-150kg per flight. It was some astronomical figure (probably hugely overinflated). This led to all manner of things being reviewed with the main target being catering. In the end, the main recommendation was reducing (or completely removing on some flights) .... ice.
    I did comment to my boss that I should get a bonus every year from the company based on the fact that every time I did not fly on one of our planes, I was saving the company money. I then suggested that I could double my contribution by flying on the competitors planes and thus costing them money. For some reason, I did not get the bonus.
    Only now just come across this topic. I remember some years ago when i also worked for an airline. (Ansett :() i was reading somewhere that JAL (JAPAN AIRLINES) had at the time the cleanest fleet of aircraft in the world and this in turn saved them millions in fuel costs. Less drag etc.
    Greg,

    Yep. I remember that one too.
    And it was certainly discussed at Ansett as another option to consider (yep - the airline I worked for was Ansett).
    I think the killer for the washing idea was that there was only one hanger with a dedicated (so to speak) washing setup. I could be wrong. It was a long time ago and Im getting older and more.... um.. whats the word?

    Brett.

  47. #47
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    at one point when fuel (oil) went right up last year Qantas planned on getting rid of the "free" magazine in the seat pocket. That was going to save some massive amount of fuel.

    oil dropped in $$$ and so was the idea......

    I hope they dont drop the ice, i like it in my Chivas regal thanks.......

    Maybe they can stop serving water to those in the back I had a laugh :D

  48. #48
    Senior Member
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6E697C6A67715739313131080 link=1253756834/45#45 date=1263369246
    Yep. I remember that one too.
    And it was certainly discussed at Ansett as another option to consider (yep - the airline I worked for was Ansett).
    I think the killer for the washing idea was that there was only one hanger with a dedicated (so to speak) washing setup. I could be wrong. It was a long time ago and Im getting older and more.... um.. whats the word?

    Brett.
    That sounds right to me Brett. Space was the issue from memory and my memory is not the best either as it was a long time ago and im getting older as well and i think the word is um.....

  49. #49
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    I have former Ansett cups that I drink my coffee out of daily.
    They certainly spent a lot of money when they were in business.
    These are made by a very, very old German manufacturer.
    They probably arent the best for drink on the grouind though as they were made thinner than a good coffee cup should be, all in the name of weight saving.

    At the auction I bought my cups from (at OMaras) the were a lot of other expensive things I noticed.
    Noritake bowls for example; excellent quality (as would be expected).

    If they want to save weight I hope they dont have those heavy silver ice buckets in first class like Ansett used to.
    And if the passengers at the pointy end could do without their metal cutlery theyd save a bit more fuel too.

  50. #50
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    Re: You, I and our planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 724E5348424354414942260 link=1253756834/48#48 date=1263378917
    Re: You, I and our planet.
    Reply #48 - Today at 21:35* I have former Ansett cups that I drink my coffee out of daily.
    They certainly spent a lot of money when they were in business.
    These are made by a very, very old German manufacturer.
    They probably arent the best for drink on the grouind though as they were made thinner than a good coffee cup should be, all in the name of weight saving.
    They certainly had a lot of money when they were in business especially in the earlier days when there were only 2 domestic airlines. They just didnt expect Air New Zealand to suck them dry to prop them up (air NZ) when the competition came in.
    Anyway i have kicked myself ever since because i bought a set of commemorate port bottles and never got around to completing the set for some reason :-/. I was one short. But i do have a couple of complete sets of AFL cards.and i was never into AFL. Sorry a bit off subject there.



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