And remember the axiom, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". In other words, it doesnt matter if you didnt know you were breaking the law. Youre still responsible.
Are you or your company complient with the electrical ACT.
The law requires that all electrical and gasfitting is carried out by a person who holds the relevant electrical or gas licence.
An electrical licence is required before any electrical wiring work can be undertaken in NSW (Insert state here), regardless of the cost of the work and regardless of whether the work is residential, commercial or industrial
All contacts can be found here - http://www.licencerecognition.gov.au/authorities.aspx
QLD - *http://www.deir.qld.gov.au/elis/ *(Electrical)
WA - * https://bizline.docep.wa.gov.au/energysafety/public_info.cfm#cont *(electrical or gas licence)
VIC - *http://vic.neca.asn.au/index.php/site/find_an_electrician/ * ( A bit primitive/ open ended)
NSW - http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Consumers/Product_and_service_safety/Electrical_safety.html *(Just advice telling the hose holder / consumer that they are responsible and your electrician should give you a uniquely numbered ‘Certificate of Compliance Electrical Work’ to show the work has been tested and checked to ensure it complies with the regulations.)
SA - http://pubreg.ocba.sa.gov.au/pubreg/pubreg_jsp/index.html
NT - http://www.neca.asn.au/index.php/consumer_information/state_and_territory_licensingregistration_authorit ies/
Will update them a little later...
So be aware... When AM craps on about Electrical Safety... It is for a reason.
PS. Dont go and do too much searching... You will not like what you find...
Often the Company thinks that if their staff *have a licence it is OK... *IT is NOT... The employer is where the buck STOPS. *:exclamation
For me.. I have seen enough shoddy work done on Coffee machines...
They have min insulation and are exposed to lots of fluids... *When the covers are off. *IT IS LIVE WORK..
End of rant. * For the moment.
And remember the axiom, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". In other words, it doesnt matter if you didnt know you were breaking the law. Youre still responsible.
Tas: If you need to confirm that an electrical contractor is licensed you can check on line.
Electricians as a single entity not available on line, so you will need to ring the office to do the check for you.
Department of Justice
Occupational Licensing Unit
PO Box 56
Rosny Tasmania 7018
Phone 03 6233 7831
Fax 03 6233 8338
Note: NSW is currently rebuilding their data base and will have it available soon..
I believe the Act being referred to in this thread is called, "Electrical Safety Act 2002". *
In NSW a relevant electrical licence is required to perform installation work.
The Electrical Safety Act 2002, The Dept. of Fairtrading nor Workcover, require a person to have a licence to maintain or repair small appliances, eg. a coffee machine. *
Workcover NSW do require a person to be "competent" when servicing appliances. *This can be achieved through assessment, having successfully completed a relevant course, or have been gained through experience.
In NSW an example of a relevant course is offered by TAFE - a 54 hour module called "Service small appliances and power tools".
...good thing I do my own maintenance under the hood of my old machine...AM as you say there is often min insulation and it gets old and gets gone too. I have done all my own maintenance but would stop short at changing my own element I reckon....but if its a straight swap I would consider it - ie straight swap without changing the wiring system per se. I dont expect you to agree that that is a good idea.
Well done AM, I have had some experience with this. Let me expand.
Some years ago, early on a Saturday morning when I was enjoying a BBQ with a few others at our horse trainers stables, I received a phone call to tell me a junior girl (school kid) that we employed on a Saturday morning at one of our convenience stores, had electrocuted herself on our automatic coffee machine. *:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
The person that called me told me the ambulance had been called and was on their way. This was the worst phone call I had ever received. On my way back to our servo I had no idea whether she was dead or alive and I was absolutely distraught.
When I arrived she was on the floor with paramedics giving her oxygen. You have no idea how I felt. When I questioned the ambo he told me she was fine and just suffering shock. I was so worked up I burst into tears and sobbed. *:( :( :( :( :(
OK... what she had done was to open the machine to clean it and lost her balance with a wet rag in her hand and fell against a live connection. ZAP!!!!!
It all worked out OK fortunately and every machine of that type had to be modified to ensure it didnt happen again.
I had visions of being sent to jail for failure to adequately train my staff. It was a HUGE lesson.
The corporate line VS what you do is your call *;)Originally Posted by 0C1910000C1717630 link=1263451711/4#4 date=1264398254
A posts here as to people who have been lucky.. *:o :o
I am so pleased that mum2three took the old BZ99 to the Sponsor as when they plugged it in it blew the breakers etc.
Sitting for 4 years and *who knows what has been done to it...
The EST *I performed BEFORE turning on (as is the safest way) also confirmed a major problem... *Disconnect the elements and no insulation fault found... First port of call - Elements *::)
Also confirmed that the EM6910 was safe to go BEFORE I handed it over..
The issue for me is often one of... If ya kill ya self .. So be it... *
But if you kill or hurt another then it can mean serious charges and regardless of the intent and due care - No licence and you up for serious fines / jail time and the fact that you might have to live with killing an *innocent person / family member... Might just be a bit hard for some...
Even with a licence it does not mean ya get off scot free; but one might assume that if the right processes had been carried out there may have been other issues at hand.. Then there is the insurance etc that often comes with a licence.
Little like driving a car with No insurance and no licence.. *The outcomes can be rather heavy.
I understand and accept that it goes on... *But I do not support it.. *
Often the Company thinks that if their staff *have a licence it is OK... *IT is NOT... The employer is where the buck STOPS. *
NOTE: NSW which has one of the most lax approaches is being brought into line.. *There are work permits and places such as second hand and hire places are a major source conjecture. *Under the acts there are strict rules as to when and how often the stuff has to be tested... as well as the relevant standards.
Many get hung up on the TERM installation.. *One needs to sit with a good legal advisor and any number of ACTs and standards as they often reference each other and you have to read and reference them as a whole...
IT IS ABOUT ELECTRICAL SAFETY - At the end of the day you need to be competent and have been assessed as such.... *
If you employ a competent person; then you become the principle contractor and thus have a responsibility under under the ACT. *A contractors lience is renewed ever year after proving your competent person; then you become the principle contractor and thus have a responsibility under under the ACT. *
A contractors lience is renewed ever year;
- after proving your competent person is still licensed/ assessed as competent. *In QLD and other states this means CPR every 6 months and a separate Rescue certificate, and
- That your company still has the correct level of insurance..
It is about Safety and payouts.. *
The NEW National requirements are being developed from the QLD and WA states... and should be starting to be rolled out and in place by late 2012 ???
One of the issues here is a central data base and consistent *across the states.. At the moment a contractor can move state to state because it is in effect the same requirements..
You employ / sell / manufacture / servcie etc *( ya a company and ya insurance is current)
But for even electricians... They have to apply for recognition between states due to diferent requirements.. very few Appliance or medical service people from NSW can work in other states and be LEGAL) *... *A pain if ya live on the border or travel as part of ya work.
Note: A dangerous event must be reported under the act and by law.. *Little like a gun shot wound..
What complicates it, is that it does not have to happen *:o... *But a Quality approach of What IF... *Thus the investigators get in and try to determine if it can be prevented... Rather than after the fact..
That is what some items often get recalled.. Many of the Electrical sites offer *public access to all their RECALL notices... *This is where the Dealer / Importer / Supplier and their contractors licence comes into play.. *They have a duty to record events and modifications and potential safety issues and report such they can be listed etc...
What... A person in SA gets a serious injury / killed and it is found to be poor workmanship or a bad product and it came from *NSW (without prejudice)... *Ya the worker will get a rap etc... Their employer will however, take the can and then some... *The issue of Safety has not been managed in accordance with the ACTS and other requirements. Many forget that what they sell localy or across teh phone / net can end up in a different sate.. The company providing has a responsibility to ensure teh product meet that other states requirements.. ie. Andy and issue getting the roasters all checked and tested..
OH... Did I tell you I got 96% for my closed book exam on this subject.. *;) * Surprised the hell out of me as I also had to wright and develop Policy and work instructions that would allow medical service staff to work across Au and NZ; while remaining with in the law at all times.
Outcome... *Any one can work on any thing they want...
But it needs to be checked before connecting to the grid; and that person and employer needs to be performing that work as set out and defined in the many regulations...
PS. *many do not and so many are very lucky and skirt the heavy hand of the law every day.
So where does this leave the supplier / employer / worker ? * Yep with a lot of assumptions and we know where that gets you..
Then Mr home handy man mods his Coffee machine and get a shock or killed - na lets say dead and causes a fire.. *Guess who is first on the list *for the investigators..... *Yep the Supplier..
1: Contractors licence - Insurance (comes first)
2: Policy and procedures to manage safety
3: Sales records
4: Service records
5: Web sites and publications.
WHY... Because some one will need to take the wrap and through a investigation responsibility and blame will be proportioned.
And just like a car accident.. Very rare is it 100% one person fault.. *But ya can bet ya bottom dollar the Supplier / Employer will cop the biggest hit.
But what if; *the worker did not know / or made a mistake or did not follow the procedure.. I hear you say....
Not good enough... TG will tell you *- Audits / training / review / monitor / check and double check.. etc etc and of course the documentation to show ya not ticking the box and doing what ya say ya doing..
Just like Toyota / Ford / Bonsoy etc etc *The manufacturer / supplier / importer carries the can... But every one else suffers.. * Well may be not in China if ya not high enough up the tree... Public executions over there for company bosses.
PS... Done a few investigations and reports.. Dont like the *Coroners Court *and looking at workers and family struggling to come to terms with what happened and the employer not present, but his proxy is... While ya deliver the cold hard facts that often include graphic pics etc.. *
And guess what... *No matter what ya thought, and who told ya what... The judge makes the final decision.... Knowledge off, *expectations and what if; get every one, every time....
PPS. And regardless of what they tell / teach ya... CPR on a work mate is not good and nothing worse than after 3 - 5 min ya stuffed, ya knees hurt and your not liking what ya see and hear; AND its another 10min at least before help arrives..
That would have been the outcome of the investigations and the possibility/ likely hood of it happening again..Originally Posted by 7E4542594A58432D0 link=1263451711/5#5 date=1264400617
As an investigator; one often has to think of the strange things that people might do.. Then a judge will decide if it was in any way foreseeable and thus, some one takes the can..
Being a bit anal, and as Andy knows a kitchen that is small and thus confined... *What could happen to my machine that would potentially deliver the same / worse outcome..
This is all conjecture but possible... Thus until I mod my machine it is OFF limits to all.
SHOTGUN... do not know if I should jump for joy or cry with frustration - However Prevention is better that the other outcome. *You started it.. No I did... Bugger bugger bugger[/edit]
A: *My self and others use it every day
B: *It is in the kitchen -= access to cutlery as well as spoons(big and small for lots of reasons).
C: *Have one if not two milk thermometers.
D: *Other coffee bits around
E: *Machine is on legs
F: * Use a wet cloth to manage the steam wand
H: *Can be reached by kids
I: *We some times have dinner parties
J: *Milk container present
K: *Choc *and Chi powder close at hand
L: *And if one thinks enough any number of other things.
Any one with me yet *OR * NOT *:-/
1: *Just checked out the BZ99 (still here with the power cord removed) = PASS
2: Just checked out the S26 (almost working but would only give it 1/1 warranty.. *One min or I m out side my fence line.. *= PASS
Now for many commercials that may not be an issue... *For home use... Remember the Judge makes the call *:-X
3: Sunbeams *= PASS
4: My love of my life at the moment = *PASS *;D ;D :D ;)
[s]Possible FAIL... *And if fails it is big time... Will be contacting one sponsor directly... May not be an issue *:-/ [/s]* But one needs to be aware and I for one will be modifying my coffee machine this evening. - Still going to mod...
PS. KK is ya reading this.. May need some stuff, if I do not have enough.. Non event.
Note: For those in the know there is a standard test called a finger test and there is a standard brass one, that is of a specific size and bends like a real finger.. *It is to test holes and access.... *Dammed little kids can get in every where.
However some have come up with interesting methods to pass the finger test and the inspector may or may not know enough to follow up with a *supplementary test..
Will be back soon with my observations.. *
OK... Sigh - I feel much better now.. Passes with conditions.... Those conditions are that the machine is maintained and maintained by some one who knows what they are doing / looking for. *A home handy man could very well introduce a potential death trap.
This would be the same for many other machines as well...... If not looked after or miss managed.
Ok the machines that passed either had no holes in the top plate / cover or if they did, they had a second layer that meant nothing could be poked through....
See part two for the story...
Ok AMs still on a rant... Sorry is it sound simple... But one can not always present in a manner to suit all...
1: Double insulated.. Most have an idea of what it is about. Well it is also an issue for connectors and terminals where people are / might be required to grasp to remove.. As part of risk management, there are requirements that should be met and the large majority do..
At least in the beginning.
Age and heat mean the insulations / spade terminal plastic covers break -melt etc etc or may just not be replaced correctly because the person doing the work does not know or understand...
2: How fool proof does it have to be... The judge will make the call.
If ya search plenty to find on it all. For eg. People under going pain management with asimple infusion pump... Dont always get teh relief they want / need.. Lets try pressing buttons every combo of button ya can think of... I mean teh pain is getting bad... Bugger... lets hold down a couple and give teh unit a thump...
Yes .. Sooner or later someone gets hurt... Lots of software and failsafes.. = Expensive pump.. Simple but expensive.
Service peopel have to do volume checks and battry changes... SO !!! Yep the liner test finishes with teh dose set to max... Unit is taken out of service mode and back to user - returned and nurse in a rush, hooks up teh patient.. YEP... Manufacturer and Service people and Nurse all face the outcomes..
Unit now defaults to a nominal value... Remember, min or max could just be as bad... Depending on the intent. And a sticky label covering all teh buttons is applied and it warns the user to check teh dose settings. Guess what.. Nothing is 100% :(
In a bit of a rush and showing off, by not using teh milk temp probe.. Kitchen is a bit crowded with a small dinner party.. What to do with the probe... Well fancy that !!!! Cups on the heating try but TWO slots free on teh top front R/H side of my coffee machine... Perfect... (n Could be any where depending on ya machine)
Pull the shots.. Swirl teh milk and it is GOOD... Now for teh lata art...
Did I tell you that my guests have been trying for a kid for 15 years and just at that late stage in life - Presto.. A mirical child (Tasshie) and bubbly with loving parents and close family and a hand full at eight... I digress.
Ok... Wife wants a chock syrup on teh top and a pattern of a flower... Bugger me where is that milk thermometer..
Tasshie, can ya get that milk thermomitor for me please... I want to do some art like we did today for ya Anty.
BANG ... Tip of probe touches the spade terminal on teh power switch and that just the start of a new set of outcomes...
Yes, it passed teh Finger test... But an additional "USER" issue test is sometimes required..
TURN OFF and UN PLUG.. Assume NOTHING... If you can shine a torch in and see the internals and maybe wiring etc ???
A: DO NOT rest small spoons or other thin metal objects on teh top... The manual may even say this... What manual ?
B: Use a cloth as a protector over the heating tray... Many already do
C: When next ya need a service or ya worried... Get teh service person to check it out and give you a signed report..
My unit is safe.. But will apply a small SS screen to the under side; for the two top front R/H side slots..
Why... Cause I am anal and the connectors show some signs of heat stress ( age and use - which is all normal and to be expected)... And a milk probe or tea spoon handle being bashed around may not be such a great idea..
Mind you, not sure if it would be teh machine or me that might cause the problem for teh person in question...
Where was that IGNORE AM option ;)
Lots of R&D being carried out by some. *Where feedback has been provided or issues identified with regards to functionality and Safety - Be it Electrical or heat etc... *I am aware that some of this gets back to the manufacturers.. And changes are being made all the time.. Thus even within one model there can be slight differences.
After chatting to a number of suppliers and looking further into it - I have copied, some and part of the responces..
"For interest I "travelled" up the line of machines in our showroom looking at the others as well as own imports.
The photos are interesting, and with one machine that shall remain nameless, you can poke a screwdriver or even a spoon directly and easily onto a fully live connection.
I have taken the liberty to edit the following line, for a number of reasons..
I am going to write to xxxxx *about it this; as part of our ongoing committment to our own R & D and commitment to safety for ALL; regardless of manufacturer / agent.
In general; the following couple of paragraphs; summed up the responces.
I/We fully support anything...... That gets the message out to all users including CS people, to keep the *@#%& out of the internals of these machines; as they are not intended, either by the manufacturer / agent or anyone else, to have any internal "user serviceability".
If you think there is a chance of an electrical shock.. *Then bring it to our attention *immediately. *Better to be safe than sorry and any supplier who does not take your concerns as to electrical safety on board; should not be in the business.
That unless the person seeking the advice is an electrician or qualified to work on electrical appliances, then they must not work on their own equipment and should take it to someone that is (qualified). *Advice should be by PM and not posted where unqualified person; might assume it is OK. *Many of the posts as to the BM mods, frighten the %@%$^ out of me.
Note: Even I, the nag as to electrical safety can see the logic in the last one (may have even been directed at me).. *Warnings etc will not exclude your complicity, should some one get hurt OR worse.
PS.. *I have been on both sides of the bench in the Coroners court and dont want to visit again... Or just yet.
Equipment test and tagged:
All electrical equipment must be test and tagged for the event.
If you require this service at the event it will be charged at approxiamatley $10 per item at the individuals expense.
This is required by law.
It is not about the work or who done it... It is about managing Electrical Safety and is the same in all states.
NOTE: As an individual you may be able to test.. But to apply / affix a Tag to the lead / instrument; the company your working for mus have a contractors licence...
Or isnt it correct that if self employed, a statement of attainment (10 hour TAFE course) presented on demand will suffice?Originally Posted by 113E3735221D313E3137353D353E24500 link=1263451711/11#11 date=1264713464
I fully agree that OHS is often overlooked or ignored and thats just not right, though I get the impression that youre advocating or suggesting that the minimum requirement repairers must have is a full electrical contractors licence?
Yea.. It is so messy and mixed up it hurts ones head at times.. *But it is important to say safe and out of the courts.... Or from hurting some one..Originally Posted by 537279797E64170 link=1263451711/12#12 date=1264721010
A simple statement and a 10 hr course may or may not suffice- depending on the work etc that may or may not be intended to be carried out and the policy and methods as defined by the employer such that their Insurance and Liability is not compromised.... And that they are still compliant with al the regs *and Acts etc that they need to carry out a legal business and meet consumer safety requirements.....
However it get worse than that..
A: As has been stated previously... Ya can work on any thing you like if it is; denergised and disconnected.
B: However the system must be tested and made SAFE before connecting to the grid.
C: You as a worker may have the skill sets / quals / ticket (what ever) but that only comes into play; under your conditions of employment and the employer must meet their commitments under the variuos Acts / regs */ etc etc.
All photo copier Tecs have to have a Restricted licence :o *Guess why... *Repairs often carried out in a place where people move around.. Testing can mean a cover might be open... ELV,LV and HV present.. And then many people might be using and touching... *Also can be considered a hostile operating environment... * * Oohh *Arrr What about a coffee machine, lots of 240 / heat , with holes in the top, water and milk thermometers and spoons with long thin handles etc etc ???
Many get confused and do not see / understand the full picture.. Further more, many questions get posed to those on the help desk (FT or Work cover) and skip the real issue as they do not know what they dont know.. *Then they get an answer that they think covers them...
A: Do I need to tag and test when doing repair work - NO
B: Do I need a license to do repair work - *NO
C: Can I perform this work inter state - YES
D: Do I need a contractors license - No
However... All the answers above are both correct and yet WRONG.. Not enough info...
One needs to be anal and very precise.. *And as any legal advisor will say *- The judge will make the call.
Your serving and I ask you for a bag of beans / you offer them at the listed $, I accept or even haggle and leave with the goods.. * A contract.
Your shop advertise Coffee Equipment repairs / I ask you to repair / you quote a repair / you carry out the repair / I pay and leave... A contract (May be maybe not - Did you have the authority to accept the offer and acceptance - if yes then a contract.. * AS4000 / AS4001 etc etc *I ask you to come out to my place and perform a repair etc *same deal - Tis a contract.. *
Your employer has authorised you / afforded you the authority to accept / decline under certain conditions.. Thus the employer *is engages in every day contracting.. But when that contracting involves a product that has safety risks... then the employer must meet certain requirements..
Be it Food / WHS for workers and those in the shop OR what the product might do to them at home...
NSW - HAS THE LAW CHANGED REGARDING TESTING AND TAGGING OF ELECTRICAL
Yes, Simplified safety regulations for electrical equipment in the workplace were gazetted on Friday 28
April 2006. The Occupational Health and Safety Amendment (Electrical Equipment) Regulation 2006
amends the previous legislative provisions contained in the Occupational Health and Safety
Regulation 2001 (the Regulation). The amending regulation now specifically identifies working
environments where testing and tagging of electrical equipment is required, such as electrical
equipment used for construction work (as defined in the Regulation) and electrical equipment used in
other ‘hostile operating environments’.
The Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act 2004 requires that electrical appliances must be designed and manufactured so that they will not, in normal use, result in electric shock, injury or death to the user, or fire damage to the user’s property.
(While one may say - designed and manufactured - Guess what- *As a the Agent / seller / Service person; you may be complicit should you fail to maintain ensure the item is SAFE)
If ya company/ sole trader *etc is not set up correctly and working 100% with in the law.. *You could end up loosing everything and going to jail., it all comes down to the damages and what you failed to do.
A guide for retailers and importers.
It is important that all electrical goods in NSW are safe to use. If you are involved in selling, importing, hiring or exchanging of electrical goods it is your responsibility to ensure that they are safe to use and
will cause no harm.
Fair Trading regularly carries out investigations in the marketplace to check for any unapproved or unsafe electrical products that are on sale.
Every year in NSW people lose their lives through electrical accidents. The prevention of electrical accidents among electrical workers and the general public in NSW is an important safety objective of the Office of Fair Trading.
By law you must report any electrical accident where medical treatment is required, either by calling your electricity provider or the Office of Fair Trading on 13 32 20. Employers must also report such accidents to WorkCover.
Most accidents can be avoided if you:
use care and common sense
don’t do it yourself – get a professional to do the job
don’t mix water and electricity
use a safety switch.
So clear as mud *;)
It will be clearer when we have a National system...
WorkCover is smart.. As they often answer with: WorkCover *does not accredit, approve or endorse any training course relating to the inspection or WorkCover does not endorse, approve or issue a licence number to a person
Just becaus they dont, does not mean that it is not a requirement or covered by another group.
QLD is all under one.. *;D *;D *;D *(Australia will be soon *8-) )
NSW has FT for Building and installations( Note - ya need to read all the regs to workout what that covers and what it does not). Workcover cover the Appliance side of things and more focused on the Workers - Not the employers or Users..
Then there is this:
Fair Tradings inspections of electrical equipment
Suppliers of electrical equipment are responsible for the safety of the products they sell. The Office of Fair Trading enforces activities aimed at removing unsafe equipment from the marketplace. As a result of shop inspections or complaints of equipment failure, sellers of unsatisfactory goods may also be instructed to suspend sales, recall previously sold goods or face prosecution
testing and tagging of electrical equipment.
As to a contractors Licence..
1: Renewed every year *;D Why *;) *"They want to see ya Insurance premiums are enough and paid up "
2: Has a Business person identified - Why - Got to know who to chase *;)
3: Has a technical person identified - Why - They have to look after the Technical issues and communicate with the Business person - so that Training and any other conditions can be met.
YES - They can be one in the same person... * Technical person pre requisites - Experience, idealy a restricted or higher and having completed *a number of legal studies around Contract and Electrical issues..
4: Workers - A range from no skills to full - may be even a Engineer *::) ::)
WHY- To demonstrate Risk management and to assist the Judge make a call as to who pay for what and or looses out.
You can have a assembly line making coffee machines and NONE of the workers need any electrical training.. *TG would have done up the documentation and work instructions etc *;D *However before going out the building or being turned on... Some one has to make sure they are SAFE and fit for purpose.. *At the end of the day- THE EMPLOYER...
YEP - I got 96% *Do I know it back to front - NOOOOOOOooooo
As stated previously - I have been on both sides of the Coroners court and it is not pleasant. *Further more when the Insurance company wipes one off... Then it is not only personal, but the injured parties suffer even more.
Like a car. *Insurance (drunk - Bald tires etc etc - breach of RWC) gets wiped... Un registered as well - then add in no public liability..... *It is not nice... Saw a man commit Suicide over the outcomes of just such a situation. *Thus lots of bystanders got hurt and no real resolution. A bad outcome for all.
But I have said enough... Those that are committed will follow up; those that dont see it as being an issue will ignore..
Do not see why people do not comply... NSW is easy.. http://blis.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/licence_file/0006/278259/ad4534.pdf Just see page one and it lists the things a Licence will allow.. Thus with out... What can ya do ???
Cheers for your views AM.
I always knew my postgrad degree in HRM, OH&S, IL and studies in Psychology and Counselling would come in handy - [s]even[/s] especially in the coffee industry. ;)
Now only if I could pour a decent rosetta! ;D
giggled like a schoolgirl
ME too..Now only if I could pour a decent Rosetta! *
Look; it is a mind field.. And under going lots of change.
In simple terms..
1: Ya sell food ya have a food license - But ya workers may or may not need but should have some skill sets or be trained
2: You provide services that see units sold / opened / repaired and the electrical safety could be compromised must be validated etc etc - Need a Contractors licence
3: Your a worker.. Ya need skill sets and may need a Restricted or full to carry out some duties.. *But ya should be ok because you Empolyer has it covered off in items 1 and 2 above..
Guess what.. It still does not help me pour a Rosetta or even a fern.
As a Qualified person.. I can still not perform paid work from home etc as I am not covered for that.. *As a Electrical person however; I do have the authority to make something safe as an if required.
At work and in my field as covered by my Employers.. Then I can do lots and happy to put my name on the tags or front court to provide evidence and technical reports etc..
For the average person at home... The message IS DONT PLAY WITH ELECTRICITY or mod / repair electrical items as your really only PLAYING.
DONT DO IT.
In addition to another roof insulator getting killed this week..
Fatality at a Townsville residence:
The Electrical Safety Office is investigating a serious electrical incident which occurred at a Townsville residence on Sunday 31 January 2010, resulting in the subsequent death of a man on Thursday 4 February 2010.
An investigation is currently underway; however, initial findings indicate the man received an electric shock after coming into contact with exposed live electrical parts from a partly disassembled vacuum cleaner.
The Electrical Safety Office reminds the general public of the danger electricity can pose; especially where live electrical parts are exposed. If you have broken or damaged electrical equipment or are unsure of the safety of the electrical equipment - discontinue use and contact a licensed electrical contractor.
Vacuum cleaner / coffee machine.. All the same.
Except there is more water around coffee gear so even more danger. Nice emoticon too ;)
As to the insulation deaths a great tragedy but the management, contractors need a major wake up call roofs are dangerous places in a lot of ways. Their is old rubber coated power cables from the 50s and into the early 70s still in use that is well and truly perished by now. Touch it and the insulation breaks away potentially exposing live wires.
Problem is that in Victoria everything after the powerpoint or anything attached with a lead is or at least used to be open go for anyone (I should check) :o Not sure about other states which is also part of the problem different states have different rules >:(
Originally Posted by 7176727D757F6A7A7D74130 link=1263451711/17#17 date=1266306425
* got it from another CS poster *;D
In fact Vic is not so diferent to NSW.. As per lots of my waffal in previous posts.. You need to ask the right question of the right person in the right department.
While ya can work on most things... To be able to say that something is ELECTRICAL SAFE and plug back into the wall - YOU need a licence of sorts..
Every one gets hung up on the term Electrical Work.. It does not have to be electrical work.. Change *a spring on the spin dryer mount in a washing machine.
You have breached the Electrical containment - Thus you need to have it tested before putting mack into use. *But you did not perform any electrical repair or work..
Electrical *Safety- Not Electrical work. *A big difference.
Open a coffee machine and replace the rubber mount for a vibe pump..
Can any one do this... *= YEP.
Cover has been removed etc Must be tested before being returned to service..
Can any one do this *= NO
Electrical *Safety- Not Electrical work. *A big difference.
fair call on the differentiation between the two as well. It can get to the stupid stage as well where for example last year at Wicked Sunday ALL electrical equipment or leads had to be certified (I think within 12 months) and tagged or they couldnt be used so a brand new appliance out of a box couldnt be used even though it has the CE or similar tag of compliance for use in Australia >:(
This is bureaucracy GONE BONKERS.
The lead that was cerfified last week as safe tagged and signed off on is then jammed in a door and had the insulation cut is safe the day after :-? Still comes back to people covering their asses or others that dont have a clue or dont have any care.
I suppose there is a reason the Darwin awards exist ::)
BTW my modded new now 3000W toy is heating up as I type and no smoke and the earth leakage hasnt tripped ;D Espresso shots Real soon
The certification is worth little as to operation and safety..... It is about manufacturing proceses.. Thus again people see the CE mark and think GREAT - 100% Safe.Originally Posted by 5651555A52584D5D5A53340 link=1263451711/19#19 date=1266310396
Opps... local person opened up and did something..
Opps... Got bumped in transport and a casing is now pushed agents a terminal..
That is why even moving between buildings or once on a truck etc etc - a test is required...
A tag *DOES NOT MEAN IT IS SAFE....Originally Posted by 5651555A52584D5D5A53340 link=1263451711/19#19 date=1266310396
It just indicates that a process has been carried out and that a testing process has been established and at that point in time; that it was tested, it passed....
But 5 min later it can be faulty.
Auditors and testing certificats are checked and it is found that your Safety commitment has not been demonstrated or being followed... A person was hurt / killed... The question will be asked as to if it was preventable.. Clear to all that some one dropped the ball... Ohhh me love you very very long time in jail *;D
That is why hire companies etc have to test and tag before and after every hire.. *Further more NSW has now implemented a term of *‘hostile operating environments’ and you may or may not be surprised, as to what that covers.. *Access by public is one...
This is the issue... ASSUMPTIONS... *Err I thought it was OFF... My wife unplugged the cord... *De energise - disconnect and Measure > Assume nothing.
Edited - mod request[/edit]
Assumptions and not following the process will do it every time.
VERY BAD example AM, and the smileys after was actually not funny!Originally Posted by 1E31383A2D123E313E383A323A312B5F0 link=1263451711/20#20 date=1266314183
Warren >:( >:( >:(
Thats in incredibly poor taste AM... :-?Originally Posted by 4E61686A7D426E616E686A626A617B0F0 link=1263451712/20#20 date=1266314183
I think it warrants an edit....
Sorry did not mean to offend... But it was meant to catch attention *and for that I make no apology.Originally Posted by 5A415E5D46415A2E0 link=1263451711/21#21 date=1266315136
Thus in some aspects a GREAT example of what ASSUMPTIONS can result in.. *I wonder what assumptions the guy from Tvl made with the vacuum cleaner and where did that leave him and his family... Assumptions.
As to guns - Have lost a mate to this very thing many years ago... *And another I know lost his son ! *While another shot his girlfriend (she was driving) while he was in the back of the ute with an unloaded gun *::)
But people need to realise that Electricity is DANGEROUS.. And if that means that the pain of past events need to be raised.. Then it is done so, such that maybe others need not suffer..
ASSUMPTIONS can and do kill and it can also be the other person that is hurt / killed.
It still amazes me that Soy milk / lead painted toys / Sharks and others dangerous items / killers are open for comment... But many who are playing with electricity here, choose to look the other way. *
1: A few have admitted to getting shocked...
2: Some have even posted ccts with a fuse in the EARTH line.. *:o :o
2: ELCB will not protect you if you get across A and N.. *Only comes into play is the is some leakage to earth... Opps... Just bypassed the elcb with point 2 above..
3: Every time you get hit... It causes damage. *If across the chest in particular... You should be getting an ECHO and other tests as the shock kills of the special parts of the heart that carry the electrical impulses to make it beat..
Thus a slow demise with poor health if lucky and only a pace maker if; there is enough muscle left..
Edited..Originally Posted by 0B544C5A515A565F5F5C5C545857390 link=1263451712/22#22 date=1266318174
But *in fact I dont think it is in poor taste at all.. It is there to drive home an important point that many continue to ignore.. *Every one is happy to use the deaths of 4 installers to hound political people. *Yet the actual Root cause *and findings have not been published etc.
Does the minister of transport get the sack after every rd death no.. *It is a fact of life that many can not see; untill there is an example that hits home.
And if that means, I upset a few... So that another CS family is safe and remains a whole unit, then does that not mean something to the greater community??
Note: This site; along with a number of other Australian based sites covering all sorts of handy many work etc; appeared in a report, that that was being complied as part identifying some of the contributing factors to people disregarding Electrical laws for eg.
Thus for many reasons, I will continue to hammer home the issue of Electrical Safety.
OK..Originally Posted by 58777E7C6B547877787E7C747C776D190 link=1263451712/23#23 date=1266318759
Still a bad example...Originally Posted by 58777E7C6B547877787E7C747C776D190 link=1263451712/23#23 date=1266318759
Fact is that you can harp on it, but some will choose to take really stupid risks and for that reason we have the Darwin awards.Originally Posted by 7F647B7863647F0B0 link=1263451712/25#25 date=1266319819
We live in a country where you are supposed to call a plumber to replace a tap washer or even to connect your natural gas bbq to your installed gas supply. Most people with a modicum of nous can manage these jobs safely. I connected mine and I tested for leaks too. You know what? I reckon I can even competently change a plug on a lead as well.
On the other hand, if unqualified people take on complex electrical work for themselves, they risk being fried...Bottom line is you cant force them to reject their own stupidity.
Edited - mod request[/edit]
As a licensed person, I am required to carry a knife *:o *Sometimes I get to even carry other more interesting devices as well.
Yep agreed... But it does not have to be complex..Originally Posted by 772830262D262A2323202028242B450 link=1263451712/26#26 date=1266320486
We also need to be pro active and that we are not supporting and thus compliant, when dangerous information is posted.
Would not admit to that here... *Unless your fully licensed.... *And be careful about saying NSW, SA or VIC do not require.. *Changes have taken place..Originally Posted by 772830262D262A2323202028242B450 link=1263451712/26#26 date=1266320486
What is a worries me, is that I often see Qualified people do it wrong.. That means a formal report to the commission; as it is a Dangerous Event as defined under the Act.
Besides that, what faith can I then have in my Electrician *::)
QCMS = Validated
Gilkatho Online = Validated
As with many things of this nature, safety education is the key and I think that is heading in the right general direction. So long as there are plenty of people around with their eyes on the ball, this will hopefully continue to improve.
It is an emotive topic, no doubt about it but emotional responses have to be put to one side when education is the key. Mind you, some facets of safety education are deliberately designed to elicit emotional reactions from the course participants but in so doing, a specific outcome is being targeted.
Keeping it short.... ;)
No pun intended. ;DOriginally Posted by 6845414D402C0 link=1263451712/28#28 date=1266324922
Ahhh, the irony of theory vs practice:
I have a colleague at work whose very pricey European portable appliance has stopped working for the second time. The first time her boyfriend took it apart (they lived in Great Britain) and re-soldered a loose wire.
Shes been trying for days just to find someone who will look at it, so far without any success.
Do you think shes tempted to pull it apart herself?
"Hmm....Big job matey and were very busy. Dont call me, Ill call you". ::) ;DOriginally Posted by 13263133033B2639353830540 link=1263451712/30#30 date=1266381945
This user was having issues with the machine not always working / coming on...
Thought it has a faulty power switch.. They were reaching behind to switch the gpo off and on as it was behind the machine...
They thought it had to be the machine as the jug that was also plugged into the same point would work.
Yep.. Pushed unit back onto the plug..
So lucky.... Missed a Darwin award by 0.01 of a nats whisker..
Had the GPO rocker switch been on the broken side... DEAD.
A quote about a coffee machine currently on the bay of evil:
"I believe it can be reduced to 15 amps from 20 amps as this will enable you to connect to a 15 amp plug which is available from exsisting wiring.All you have to do is put in a 15 amp female plug on the wall and change the c/breaker."
:o :o :o
Yeah, lets just change some plugs and sockets and up the circuit breaker so it stops cutting out...electricians - who needs them, huh?
I aint an electrician...but I aint dumb enough to think this is right!
I hope whoever buys it doesnt believe the fool selling it.
Seems he forgot the bit about contacting your lawyer to arrange the law suit :oOriginally Posted by 7D4C5B4243444F42542D0 link=1263451712/33#33 date=1266987264
Yea under Australian law - Auction houses and ALL second hand dealers and Hire places have very strict requirements as to meeting strict Electrical testing requirements and full documentation / traceability....Originally Posted by 49786F7677707B7660190 link=1263451712/33#33 date=1266987264
However just like most of the suppliers of many other products.. That bay of Necessity and many people who supply electrical items (coffee included) across state boarders etc *BREACH each and ever state and national law there is re Electrical safety.....
Thus some should be careful when pointing the finger.. *Tis why many who *sell or offer service use an appropriately qualified and licensed *person / group in the state where the unit might have been sold to. * While the supplier can not manage owners moving products and doing what they might do to the said device..
If they market and or state they can supply into another state / territory; they have an obligation to meet local requirements. *
Thus many that poke and toss stones at that bay of necessity need to look in the mirror.
PS. *Saw a draft copy of a report Friday night...
A number of inter state suppliers are being investigated and further investigations is to if the relevant departments in the two states; can be engaged to look further, to see if local requirements are being breached as well.....
No Coffee machine supplier / service group in QLD can operate without a contractors licence and Qualified and licensed staff.
But another can set up in another state and think they can supply etc into Qld and not have to meet the electrical safety requirements.. * Some may need to start revisiting their approaches now; but in a few years the new *National system will catch them out any way..... *Selling and servicing on a level playing field...
And of course all the different requirements in different states probably breach the Free Trade Between the States federal legislation and are possibly illegal in themselves.
If someone fights it in court, the state acts may just fall over and there will be NO legal requirements until all is made congruent Australia wide!
It happened in SA with the SA Psychological Practices Act.
Yes but every DYI thinks they are qualified and then other DYI people advise them of dangerous activities..Originally Posted by 717D747979701C0 link=1275631085/11#11 date=1275653118
Yes and no.. Have had two Faemas from down south deposited for me to look at... Both not working..
One I think was from a CSér another ...... **
One was *50/50 / passed the tests but did not meet actual safety regs - CSér I am sure.
The other had wiring from one side of an element disconcerted and it was touching other parts of the machine (live), a filed earth pin and the actual earth had been disconnected/ come off at the main switch..
Unit worked when switched on; but his wife keep getting tingles *:o
DYI *jobs and*15A to 10A conversions will go on as many believe they know better.
Until more walk the talk; the following is lost.
Any activity that involves electrical parts must be performed by a qualified maintenance tecnician
The next one I look at it will be one of - Bugger it .
Formal report and submit the the QLD Justice Department as I am required to do.. Regardless of who it is.
Those that sell and service electrical items should know better..