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Thread: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/good-chance-of-finding-missing-us-teen-sailor-abby-sunderland/story-e6frg6nf-1225878301639
    It was just a matter of time before one of these youngsters got into strife, all very sad really, I cant imagine what the parents are thinking when they allow kids of such a tender age to take such risks.
    I sincerely hope shes ok but 40 hours before the nearest vessel can reach her, its not looking good.

  2. #2
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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    It probably happens on a regular basis its just that we dont take a lot of notice when it is an adult. Take Tony Bullemore or what ever his name is. The West Australians know him oh so well as we have had to rescue him on more than one occasion.

    What is crazy about it is that these round the world voyages usually attract commercial interests and have many sponsors. As the voyages are almost commercial in nature it is only fair that the team should cough up payment for rescues.

    Compulsory insurance for such events would also be another option but how do you say to someone who is sinking off the coast with no insurance that you arent going to pick them up.

    At the end of the day it could happen to anyone. It wasnt the 16 year old skipper who tipped the boat over it was the 8m waves. It will happen to anyone. Take a look at the few sydney to hobarts in previous years for example.

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    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Hi all

    There are a couple of things that Id like to point out here.

    Saying something is of a commercial nature whenever there are sponsors supporting an expedition or an adventure and therefore they should pay for any rescue costs is a simplification of a complex situation. Large and costly adventures require some sponsorship from the start if they are to ever get off the ground. A yacht and all the safety gear and fittings and things costs so much. Fortunately we do have companies that sponsor young people who are adventurous and seek a challenge. Those that take on smaller adventures that they can afford to support themselves dont need a sponsor. So should we therefore say to those that take on a larger challenge with sponsorship - "if you need help, you pay" ? That sort of opinion does not encourage our youth, or oldies for that matter, to take on tough challenges like *Everest or the Atlantic or a trek across Mongolia or diving deep into the ocean or a cave.

    The other issue is the cost of rescue itself. Should society pay? Yes there are stupid adventurers just like there are stupid people that chat on their mobile phone and walk out onto the street. But most adventurers plan their trips very well and some things individuals do for a challenge or recreation have some risk. Bushwalking, climbing, caving, parachuting, sea kayaking, 4WDing in the Nullarbor, surfing and many other sports have some degree of risk. After some rescue its very easy to sit back and say "they should help pay" but do we really want an Australia where no one has any adventure? Im sure most of you will have done something adventurous or admired some aussie in a book or on TV who did something adventurous.

    My person opinion is that society paying for the cost of rescues is the price we pay so that *those of us that wish to extend themselves in adventure and learning beyond the confines of city life can do so. Those people enrich our society in immeasurable ways. And occasionally we have to pay for stupid idiots.

    As a former member of a rescue squad for about a decade I had a few times when I had to assist in cave rescues. It cost me time, money and it was stressful but rewarding. I would never have wanted any of those that I helped to have to pay money for that assistance. Likewise for adventurers around the world, whether on ocean, land or sky, as a humane and understanding society we should assist them whenever and however they get into trouble.

    Mike
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    *




  4. #4
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Looks like she has been located alive and well, very pleased to hear it. :)

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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Fair call mike.

    Perhaps there should be agreements with other countries. Suppose Jessica Watson for example got into trouble off the South African coast it wouldnt be reasonable for Australia to help foot the bill then.

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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6C50594154350 link=1276226980/3#3 date=1276239515
    Looks like she has been located alive and well, very pleased to hear it. Smiley
    Gonna be some nervous hours for her waiting for the official rescue crew to reach her though. Mirroring Mikes sentiments the rescue crews would be ecstatic too.

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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Does society need people like these, adventurers of any age???
    The answer is yes but do I want to pay for them to be rescued? No, not really, I dont care but if we all took a hard line attitude then we would still be swarming around a phenomenon called fire.

    I think that an expedition should at least have to have a fund that this set aside for rescue costs, it doesnt need to cover the full costs but at least cover some form of agreed %, what this may be who knows.
    If the fund is never needed then its given to charity and if it is needed then It should either be used as intended or again given off to charity.

    We all pay various degrees of taxes to run our country, frankly I dont want to pay more but if paying more results in adventurous types getting out of trouble then I guess this has its merits providing something is put back into the community.

    Take Jessica Watson for instance, do I care if she sailed around the world?? Not really but I appreciate that what she has done for others of her generation and those that she inspires cannot really have a price put on it.

    The best we can do is to support or at least not destroy them before they start their expeditions. As Speleomike said there are stupid adventurers, we shouldnt can them all for the poor preparation of the few.

    Perhaps this youngster will try again, one would hope so and with sheer determination she may yet do so and grow to become a future business leader of the next generation.

    Is this type of life in my blood? No its not but I can at least appreciate the effort involved.


    My second crack from a coffee starved CS

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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Im not convinced there is enough public value in these activities to justify the public covering all the rescue expense - especially when the decisions to undertake the activity is a private one.

    I believe that these rescues should be at least in part be privately funded - but perhaps in the form of an income contingent loan - like a HECS debt.

    The tricky problem is working out what level of risk is above the threshold where such a policy would kick in - and making judgements about reasonable controls of risks. Someone may do a relatively modest risk activity with poor risk management (think overseas visitors going for bushwalks) and be substantially more likely to require a public funded rescue compared to someone undertaking a high risk activity and being exceptionally well prepared (think round world sailors). How do you sort through all this to work out who to slug and who not to?

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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 484B5E575E545652505E3B0 link=1276226980/2#2 date=1276236233
    Saying something is of a commercial nature whenever there are sponsors supporting an expedition or an adventure and therefore they should pay for any rescue costs is a simplification of a complex situation. Large and costly adventures require some sponsorship from the start if they are to ever get off the ground. A yacht and all the safety gear and fittings and things costs so much. Fortunately we do have companies that sponsor young people who are adventurous and seek a challenge.
    I tend to go for the simple answer.
    Yes it costs a lot to get started but the responsibility should not end there.

    A friend of my son commented on the situation tonight.
    He wondered what kind of parents let a 16 yr old sail alone around the world.
    He remembered when he was 16 he wasnt even allowed to drive to KFC.

    I hope shes OK and I also hope people will stop allowing their kids to take unnecessary risks.

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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0834293238392E3B33385C0 link=1276226980/8#8 date=1276263566
    A friend of my son commented on the situation tonight. He wondered what kind of parents let a 16 yr old sail alone around the world. He remembered when he was 16 he wasnt even allowed to drive to KFC.

    I hope shes OK and I also hope people will stop allowing their kids to take unnecessary risks. *
    I feel that is not a fair comment, being overly broad. Not all 16 year olds are like your son. I have known 13 year olds who I would vote for for President, and I have known adults who I wouldnt let feed my dog.

    And "unnecessary risks?" Like crossing the street, riding a skateboard, dating, driving? Those who risk the most have the most to gain. From what little I have read in this case, the greatest risk was leaving California at the beginning of Summer which put her in the Indian Ocean at the beginning of winter when the weather and seas in that area become treacherous, particularly in such a small craft.

  11. #11
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 63505F55486E761F310 link=1276226980/9#9 date=1276271351
    I feel that is not a fair comment, being overly broad. *
    I make a lot of broad statements Randy. I do it to exaggerate the point. So I dont see it as unfair; more "emphasis". *;)

    Quote Originally Posted by 63505F55486E761F310 link=1276226980/9#9 date=1276271351
    From what little I have read in this case, the greatest risk was leaving California at the beginning of Summer which put her in the Indian Ocean at the beginning of winter when the weather and seas in that area become treacherous, particularly in such a small craft. *
    Very true. Some very experienced sailors have made just that point.
    Surely any proper risk analysis should have shown up that particular unnecessary (?) risk?

    Why leave California in summer; better crowds for the publicity?

  12. #12
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 023E2338323324313932560 link=1276226980/10#10 date=1276297545
    Quote Originally Posted by 63505F55486E761F310 link=1276226980/9#9 date=1276271351
    I feel that is not a fair comment, being overly broad. *
    I make a lot of broad statements Randy. I do it to exaggerate the point. So I dont see it as unfair; more "emphasis". *;)

    Quote Originally Posted by 63505F55486E761F310 link=1276226980/9#9 date=1276271351
    From what little I have read in this case, the greatest risk was leaving California at the beginning of Summer which put her in the Indian Ocean at the beginning of winter when the weather and seas in that area become treacherous, particularly in such a small craft. *
    Very true. Some very experienced sailors have made just that point.
    Surely any proper risk analysis should have shown up that particular unnecessary (?) risk?

    Why leave California in summer; better crowds for the publicity?
    a) Remember, these teenage sailors have basically been raised on boats. A 16yo can have 14 years of sailing experience, as in the case of Jessica Watson.

    b) If you sail around the world you can be guaranteed that it will be winter at some point in the journey. ;)


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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4F6E656562780B0 link=1276226980/11#11 date=1276304124
    a) Remember, these teenage sailors have basically been raised on boats.A 16yo can have 14 years of sailing experience, as in the case of Jessica Watson.
    Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4F6E656562780B0 link=1276226980/11#11 date=1276304124
    b) If you sail around the world you can be guaranteed that it will be winter at some point in the journey.
    Not if you take your time. ;)


  14. #14
    Senior Member Lovey's Avatar
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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    There are always arguments for and against these sort of things, like letting a 16 year old sail around the world.
    Does it have potential for danger? Of course it does.
    Is there any benefit to the rest of the world by letting her do it? It depends of what sort of benefit youre looking for.
    If shes well set up with equipment, training and knowledge which minimises the risks, go for it I say. Its not like she set sail in a bath tub with 2 packs of instant noodles and no water.

    As for the cost of the rescue, its a cost we have to bear as a society. What if the shoe were on the other foot and Jessica Watson came to grief near the USA which required a rescue?
    If the USA sent us the bill, a lot of people in Australia would be jumping up an down and demanding that they should pay for her rescue, as it was in their waters.

    The rescue services are there for that very purpose, to rescue people. Were paying for them regardless of whether theyre actually doing a rescue or not. The same goes for the navy, air force, customs, coast watch, etc.
    Also, doing a rescue is extremely an valuable tool for the rescue services, as it puts their training to good use.

    It also begs the question about where to draw the line in relation to rescuing people. Should a a financial limit be imposed on a rescue?
    Do we not rescue someone if it was an accident or circumstance that was self inflicted?

    We need people with a spirit of adventure, it makes the world a better place. Almost 100 years ago, a bunch of (mainly) young blokes with a great spirit of adventure set off on a journey to a faraway land for a big adventure. Imagine if these blokes were told that it was too dangerous and they were not allowed to go? There would be no ANZAC legend and tradition.

    Just my 2.5 cents worth.

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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 694A53405C250 link=1276226980/13#13 date=1276419749
    Its not like she set sail in a bath tub with 2 packs of instant noodles and no water.

    If she was sailing in a bath tub, with no water, she would not need to be rescued by maritime agencies. She might need wheels though!

    ;D

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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    I cant believe people would actually even mention any cost when it comes to saving another humans life. Besides, where is that money going to? As far as I am aware, it all stays without the Australian economy.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0F393A382F3939250825284A0 link=1276226980/15#15 date=1276478805
    I cant believe people would actually even mention any cost when it comes to saving another humans life. Besides, where is that money going to? As far as I am aware, it all stays without the Australian economy.
    I agree, no mention of money in my original post, my concern was the wisdom of allowing 16 year olds (with little life experience) to take on such risky ventures.
    You cant put an old head on young shoulders.

  18. #18
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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 78444D5540210 link=1276226980/16#16 date=1276479477
    You cant put an old head on young shoulders.
    A friend once told me, and Ive remembered often:
    "Theres a difference between twenty years experience, and one years experience twenty times."

    You cant guarantee that an old head signifies anything more than age.

    I know that the young take more risks than the old. Maybe thats why most great discoveries are made by the young. We older ones get to develop them.

    Greg

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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2010/06/14/sailor-abby-sunderlands-dad-signed-reality-doomed-voyage/?test=faces

    The father of teen sailor Abby Sunderland
    told The NY Post Sunday that hes broke and had signed a contract to do a reality show, "Adventures in Sunderland," about his family of daredevil kids weeks after she set off on her doomed and dangerous solo sail around the globe.

    Laurence Sunderland, a sailing instructor who lives in the middle-class Los Angeles suburb of Thousand Oaks with his pregnant wife and seven kids, opened their home to film crews four months ago.

    "The show might be about family, it might be about Abigails trip. Its something that was shopped around," he said.


    maybe the advertising profits can pay the rescue bill?

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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Deja vu.... (1996)

    Jessica Dubroff, a seven-year-old pilot trainee died attempting to become the youngest person to fly an airplane across the United States. Unable to officially hold a licence due to her age, she was under the guidance of a qualified instructor.

    The NTSB found the cause to be the flight instructors improper decision to take off in poor weather conditions, his overloading the aircraft, and his failure to maintain airspeed, which resulted in a stall.

    It also found that "contributing to the [instructors] decision to take off was a desire to adhere to an overly ambitious itinerary, in part, because of media commitments."




  21. #21
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D48515B0F0E380 link=1276226980/19#19 date=1276573467
    Deja vu
    Quote Originally Posted by 7D48515B0F0E380 link=1276226980/19#19 date=1276573467
    United States

  22. #22
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Just a heads up...

    I brought this home yesterday.... * 8-)



    I expect you all to chip in if I, "Do a Bullimore! *;D


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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4549404D4D44280 link=1276226980/18#18 date=1276522143
    http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2010/06/14/sailor-abby-sunderlands-dad-signed-reality-doomed-voyage/?test=faces

    The father of teen sailor Abby Sunderland
    told The NY Post Sunday that hes broke and had signed a contract to do a reality show, "Adventures in Sunderland," about his family of daredevil kids weeks after she set off on her doomed and dangerous solo sail around the globe.

    Laurence Sunderland, a sailing instructor who lives in the middle-class Los Angeles suburb of Thousand Oaks with his pregnant wife and seven kids, opened their home to film crews four months ago.

    "The show might be about family, it might be about Abigails trip. Its something that was shopped around," he said.


    maybe the advertising profits can pay the rescue bill?
    Maybe he could put some of the money towwards some form of contraception? Then he may not be broke ;D

    I spent my growing up years on the West Coast of South Australia and The Southern Ocean is a scary piece of Ocean. Anyone who knows anything about sailing knows winter is the wowst time to be sailing through there. I would put money on betting Whoever planned for her to be sailing through there was cutting corners and taking a risk with the prioroty being to beat Jess Watsons record.

    Dennis, Id pay for your rescue. :D

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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Nice toy Dennis but rocky to brew a coffee on is the only problem I see :)

  25. #25
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    Re: Solo sailors, it had to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7F5E555552483B0 link=1276226980/21#21 date=1287741377
    Just a heads up...

    I brought this home yesterday.... * 8-)
    Nice - Tasars are awesome fun, particularly 15knts on a broad-reach with flat-ish water :D



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