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Thread: Roasting in Aluminium? -

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    Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    A question for the experienced:

    Does roasting with an aluminium drum bear the same cautions as cooking with an aluminium pot? :-/

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Quote Originally Posted by 4D5B4C5E4348474C290 link=1279884970/32#32 date=1280727821
    A question for the experienced:

    Does roasting with an aluminium drum bear the same cautions as cooking with an aluminium pot? :-/
    if your talking "oldtimers" disease i dont think they ever really linked ally and it did they?
    same as cooking in a scratched teflon coated pan....
    or eating nitrates in suausges
    or just about anything you do in life....

    for SYD siders i could not find any in Auburn (main drag) today plenty of brikkas but nothing to roast with... interesting street but

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Quote Originally Posted by 7E687F6D707B747F1A0 link=1279884970/32#32 date=1280727821
    A question for the experienced:

    Does roasting with an aluminium drum bear the same cautions as cooking with an aluminium pot? :-/
    The concern that cooking with aluminium utensils is a contentious one and from what I understnad, came about due to findings that people with Alzheimers Disease were found to have large deposits of aluminium in the brain. Hypotheses that aluminium causes Alzheimers remains a hyotheses.

    There is evidence that consuming large quantities of aluminium is detrimental to health, and when heated to high temperatures andor combined with cooking or contact with certain foods, the aluminium leaches out into the food. Try placing a sliced tomato on aluminium foil for a little while, the lick the tomato and it will taste metallic.

    I believe that it is unlikely to cause health issues with what Id call regular household use and am and would be more concerned with what pollution for example is doing to our health.

    Personally, I dont like the idea of roasting coffee with an aluminium vessel - mainly due to the high temps required. Ultimately though, what I think is probably irrelevant as Im not a scientist, have no evidence either way, and only know what I have read on the subject.

    You need to be the judge!


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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Quote Originally Posted by 0B2A2121263C4F0 link=1279884970/34#34 date=1280731381
    Quote Originally Posted by 7E687F6D707B747F1A0 link=1279884970/32#32 date=1280727821

    A question for the experienced:

    Does roasting with an aluminium drum bear the same cautions as cooking with an aluminium pot? :-/
    The concern that cooking with aluminium utensils is a contentious one and from what I understnad, came about due to findings that people with Alzheimers Disease were found to have large deposits of aluminium in the brain. *Hypotheses that aluminium causes Alzheimers remains a hyotheses.

    There is evidence that consuming large quantities of aluminium is detrimental to health, and when heated to high temperatures andor combined with cooking or contact with certain foods, the aluminium leaches out into the food. *Try placing a sliced tomato on aluminium foil for a little while, the lick the tomato and it will taste metallic.

    I believe that it is unlikely to cause health issues with what Id call regular household use and am and would be more concerned with what pollution for example is doing to our health.

    Personally, I dont like the idea of roasting coffee with an aluminium vessel - mainly due to the high temps required. *Ultimately though, what I think is probably irrelevant as Im not a scientist, have no evidence either way, and only know what I have read on the subject.

    You need to be the judge!
    Hi Dennis,

    I think it would be wiser to delete your reply to Jaymad as it contains so little that is factual and so much trivial, wrong and what I presume to be commercially driven.
    The facts are not that hard to find.
    One would expect that a prudent man would make some small effort to find the facts before restating so much wrong information, unless vested interest was a major factor.

    I am incensed by your post.

    Lindsay

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Quote Originally Posted by 2326212B3C2E363D2E4F0 link=1279884970/35#35 date=1280746110
    I think it would be wiser to delete your reply to Jaymad as it contains so little that is factual and so much trivial,
    [rant][/rant] ::)

    Geez....On that basis, youd delete a fair bit of the stuff that gets posted here...I am also of the opinion that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the post...

    FWIW, I wouldnt be that keen to roast in Aluminium either- regardless of what various different groups reckon.

    Nevertheless, if an Aluminium roaster rocks your boat, go for it....thats if you can remember where you left it *;D

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Quote Originally Posted by 613E26303B303C353536363E323D530 link=1279884970/36#36 date=1280746524
    FWIW, I wouldnt be that keen to roast in Aluminium either- regardless of what various different groups reckon...
    Ya... It is interesting as for many years most of teh world did little but cook and roast in soft metals... Tin/Ally/ Copper etc etc... Stainless Steal only become part of the story once it got cheep enough to mass produce..

    Doubt that the odd roast in a cheep ally pot will do much more or add significantly; to all the crap and exhaust fumes one sucks in every day going to and from work... Then add all the chemicals in the food and drink ........

    Quote Originally Posted by 17363D3D3A20530 link=1279884970/34#34 date=1280731381
    I believe that it is unlikely to cause health issues with what Id call regular household use and am and would be more concerned with what pollution for example is doing to our health.

    One day of driving in a new car with those strong plastic fumes would out perform a years worth of roasting once a week, in an ally pot ;)

    Then again Context Vs Peer pressure Vs Google Vs Intellect

    But I guess for many, it is easer to blend in with what ever is seen as acceptable to teh masses at teh time..



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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    if your talking "oldtimers" disease i dont think they ever really linked ally and it did they?

    Have "they" ever NOT linked it with "oldtimers"?

    same as cooking in a scratched teflon coated pan....

    I wont cook even in an unscratched teflon pan!

    or eating nitrates in suausges

    Sausages!!! Your kidding eh. Cant even put sausages and food in the same sentence for mine.

    or just about anything you do in life....

    However shortened it may become.... :(

    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Aluminium in the diet from food and water is poorly absorbed through the gut.
    http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/scienceandeducation/factsheets/factsheets2004/aluminiuminfoodandwa2748.cfm

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Hi Lindsay,

    People will come to their own opinion and choose whatever they want to roast in be it dog bowl, wok, Behmor, whatever... The important bit as they say is the journey.

    Sometimes, other members will have a different opinion to yours and thats something youre going to have to get used to ;)

    Id suggest a revisit of the entire contents of the thread to gain a full understanding of the context rather than shooting off at the mouth.

    In the meantime, if you hold any hard Scientific data about the behaviour of Aluminium when used at temperatures approaching 250oC in the presence of green coffee beans, please enlighten us. *:-?

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Sorry Guys I didnt know that post contained any secrets.
    Actually which part was the secret?
    Quote Originally Posted by 045B43555E5559505053535B5758360 link=1279884970/41#41 date=1280750711
    In the meantime, if you hold any hard Scientific data about the behaviour of Aluminium when used at temperatures approaching 250oC in the presence of green coffee beans, please enlighten us.
    If you wanted to know about the behaviour of aluminium or copper you could find out on the internet in minutes.

    Here is an unedited exerpt
    Copper toxicity is usually due to:
    -excessive supplementation
    -the increasingly common problem of low levels of zinc in the diet
    -contaminated food and drinking water due to contact with metallic copper
    -external exposures such as a copper IUD or accidental agricultural overspray
    -elevated levels of estrogens.
    Some stuff on aluminium.
    http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/07/29/1163941.htm
    http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/165315-overview

    Facts just facts.
    Lindsay

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -


    (Note... moved the discussion about roasting in Aluminium from another thread getting dragged off topic to here)


    Andy.

    ...please continue to debate in a civil fashion...


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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Quote Originally Posted by 6560676D7A68707B68090 link=1280727822/10#10 date=1280754446
    If you wanted to know about the behaviour of aluminium or copper you could find out on the internet in minute
    Agreed, and youre talking to a Chem major. Sadly, the links provided no data whatsoever on the reaction of Aluminium to heat when used in cooking (roasting).

    Neither do we have anything on whether there is any influence on coffee chemistry and therefore in the cup? There must be something in a journal out there somewhere?

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Gee, I go away for a few hours and an aluminium war breaks out.

    Lindsay, Im a little offended though very amused that you feel my post was influenced by commercial interests. *

    Im also puzzled, as I eluded that there is no scientific evidence that small amounts of ingested aluminium are not detrimental to health and you have consequently corroborated.

    The fact is that I can taste aluminium in some foods when an aluminium utensil is used for the preparation of the food, and it is for this reason that I prefer not to use it.

    Do you really think Im the only one that can taste it?

    If you could be a little clearer as to why you are incensed and have made such derogatory remarks then I might make some sense of your hostile remarks.

    In relation to your references, while I have a high regard for Dr Karl I am reminded whenever he speaks, that he also wrote a thesis on navel fluff. *I prefer peer reviewed papers as contained in the following link.

    http://www.world-aluminium.org/cache/fl0000237.pdf

    Once you get through reading all 769 pages of it, please feel free to enlighten me with a one-page summary.


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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    2MCM,

    You removed the guts out of my post, deleted a great swag, what are you fearful of, you could have proved how superior your Chem major was to mine.
    I think we should let anyone following this (if anyone cares) know the facts (how many could there be over here off topic) those interested would be able to put two and two together or did the mention of copper trouble you.
    Let them decide, copper the most common heavy metal toxicity, makes a handy reference dont you think as well as being topical.
    http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/07/29/1163941.htm
    http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/165315-overview
    http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C514041.html
    Or check Wiki for toxicity of aluminium and copper.
    Quote Originally Posted by 316E76606B606C656566666E626D030 link=1280727822/12#12 date=1280755519
    anyone
    Quote Originally Posted by 6560676D7A68707B68090 link=1280727822/10#10 date=1280754446
    If you wanted to know about the behaviour of aluminium or copper you could find out on the internet in minute
    Agreed, and youre talking to a Chem major. Sadly, the links provided no data whatsoever on the reaction of Aluminium to heat when used in cooking (roasting).

    Neither do we have anything on whether there is any influence on coffee chemistry and therefore in the cup? There must be something in a journal out there somewhere?
    Lindsay




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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Well CSrs,

    I aspire to NEVER take myself too seriously, but not doing too well at it tonight.
    I seem to be suffering from acute BS poisoning, it does leave a nasty taste in ones mouth.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Well Lindsay, to date you have attacked individuals and done nothing more than cite commercial websites, without providing your own personal views on the matter.

    If you have any Id be interested to read them.

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    I seem to remember that the aluminum found in the brain tissue was never shown to be the cause of the disease. At the same time, if aluminum has been shown to store in brain tissue, why use it for food preparation?

    I will say that my wife and I do not cook in aluminum nor use any coffee making equipment with aluminum that is in contact with the water nor the coffee. Neither do we ever microwave in plastic.

    In regards to coffee equipment with aluminum parts, there is one good reason to not use it. It can be a pain to clean because the common cleaning agents made for coffee equipment are not at all good for aluminum. It is very easy to clean the drum of the Hottop. Soak it in a hot solution of TSP or equivalent and it is like new again... offered as an example only.

  18. #18
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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    RIGHT! Which one of you naughty boys stole AMs shtick? ;D

    My mum used to cook Tea Cake in an Aluminium pan. I am naturally horrified by this many years later because I would have prefered Coffee Cake! I now have to live with the consequences of these tarnished memories.

    Left field out!

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Quote Originally Posted by 5653545E495B43485B3A0 link=1280727822/13#13 date=1280760706
    2MCM,

    You removed the guts out of my post, deleted a great swag
    Just to set the record straight here, I did not edit nor delete a single post of yours Lindsay. You did however manage to gain the attention of most of the mod team.

    I have had a hearty gut full of this thread, so Ill see you when I next need something from Cut price potsn pans r us ::)

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C534B5D565D5158585B5B535F503E0 link=1280727822/18#18 date=1280785601
    Quote Originally Posted by 5653545E495B43485B3A0 link=1280727822/13#13 date=1280760706
    2MCM,

    You removed the guts out of my post, deleted a great swag
    Just to set the record straight here, I did not edit nor delete a single post of yours Lindsay. You did however gain the attention of almost the entire mod team.

    I have had a hearty gut full of this thread, so Ill see you when I next need something from Cut price potsn pans r us ::)
    Then for being wrong about the phantom editor I sincerely apologise to you 2MCM.

    To Dennis, I did not intend to attack any individual but I do reject falsehood and what I perceived to be commercially motivated spruiking, erroneous denigration of broadly competitive legitimate alternatives.
    Perhaps I have misjudged the motivation of others and the CS website also.

    I am interested in the facts and if I have misjudged the facts or issues then clearly I am in error.

    The facts regarding the toxicity of aluminium is that the hazard is close to zero, which i not the case with all metals in current roaster use.
    Suggestions that this is not so, must be motivated by something.
    My assumption/opinion was that the motivation were largely commercial and/or convenient ignorance. On this website is this regarded as OK? or is that also "Common knowledge"?

    Lindsay
    PS I also have had a hearty gut full of this thread, but perhaps I am now wiser in the ways of the world or at least the CS website (still happy to deal with facts they dont bite).

  21. #21
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Well Lindsay we seem to agree so I dont understand what all the drama was about and I certainly woudnt continue to spray my armpits with the stuff if I were concerned.

    As mentioned earlier, I just dont like the taste it can impart.

    In regards to "commercially motivated spruiking", again I dont understand how you thought that, when I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by 6B4A4141465C2F0 link=1279884970/3#3 date=1279888407
    Its cute and I love these sorts of gadgets.
    Quote Originally Posted by 303532382F3D252E3D5C0 link=1280727822/19#19 date=1280791346
    Perhaps I have misjudged the motivation of others and the CS website also.
    Yes, I think so. Thankyou for the quasi apology.

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    After the preceding not sure if it worth getting back to Javmads question *::)

    Aluminium has some issues to contend with, thermal conduction is excellent so it will roast very evenly.

    Thermal expansion is BAD so if you make a drum roaster in the normal arrangement then you will have to take that into consideration as you are likely to have binding issues between the ends and the faces of the drum area. *I havnt done any numbers but the clearance may be such that beans may get jammed between the drum and face. Also applies to some other roaster styles.

    The other problem longer term will be one of Aluminium Creep caused by exposure to high heat and loads, that will be likely to cause the drum to deform over time. This problem can be mitigated by making heavier walled drums and using different alloys to some degree.

    There is also the issue of cost and machining and welding complexities over other alternate materials.

    Like Dennis mentioned above I have had aluminium taint or other metallic taints from time to time from Aluminium cookware so if it were me I wouldnt based on this and the other items mentioned above.

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Quote Originally Posted by 5354505F575D48585F56310 link=1280727822/21#21 date=1280799190

    Thermal expansion is BAD so if you make a drum roaster in the normal arrangement then you will have to take that into consideration as you are likely to have binding issues between the ends and the faces of the drum area. *I havnt done any numbers but the clearance may be such that beans may get jammed between the drum and face. Also applies to some other roaster styles.
    bit OT but

    I was thinking about thermal expansion in general after looking at a few ideas on HR, and if you were building a roaster you would need to take it into consideration on any metal. I would want the "gap" at cold and then it "expands" when hot. that way when you preheat the gap closes up and no crushing beans.....

    a few of the designs on HR build in some expansion (or adjustment)

    can any one with a commercial roaster tell us if there is much expansion in their roaster drum and how is it managed?

    back to the ally / copper / metal debate.

    it actually crossed my mind as to what sort of copper they are using in the other "baby" roaster and is it high quality. many coppers have a content of other metals, silver, gold, nickle, cobalt, LEAD etc. depending on where the raw product is coming from. Lead (and nickel / cobalt) being the really bad one.... and also what chemical reactions may be happening in a copper roaster but of course ally has a number of issues as well as discussed above.

    either way i reckon the quantities that we would be exposed to would have little impact on most home users compared to what other chemicals we ingest on a daily basis, caffeine included .

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    Re: Roasting in Aluminium? -

    Still OT but that is in part why the drums on commercial roasters are Cast Iron or Carbon steels. 300 series S/Steels suffer from thermal conductivity and expansion problems too but 410 Stainless is very similar to Carbon steels so it is a good one.

    On Copper or Brass it is very common to Tin line these when they are in contact with foods as Tin is non toxic.



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