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    Name that machine ?..

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    ..not too difficult for those that have been following its development..
    ..Almost ready ?


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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Let's see now. Lever. Steam wand on the right. That would be a .....(sorry, not telling). Rather deep isn't it? I assume the actual machine has better looking handles.

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    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    That Lever group looks so familiar......
    Where have I seen one before?

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    CMA/Astoria, so lots of things. Kees van der Westen for one.

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    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick_bond View Post
    CMA/Astoria, so lots of things. Kees van der Westen for one.
    You forgot..... Bosco.
    Now, who used to sell Bosco??
    I will let others guess the name.
    I agree with flynnaus as to the handles.. they did say that custom options would be available.
    I like the spiral on the lever handle.

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    Name that machine ?..

    London Calling......

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    Name that machine ?..

    I would say...
    But I can't for the life of me work out how it's pronounced... :giggled like a schoolgirl

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    So that's the prototype case. May just be the camera angle etc but I hope the proportions will be nicer by the time it gets to market.

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    Senior Member chopinhauer's Avatar
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    London calling is correct... but it's the Roman name for London. This machine has been generating quite a lot of heat on home-barista, especially between the resident Bezerra loving guru on that forum and the not so Bezzera enamoured maker of the pictured prototype New domestic lever espressso machine with commercial group - Lever Espresso Machines - Page 7 • Home-Barista.com
    As for the proportions it seems very deep (over 50 cms) and is very heavy by all accounts, so while it is a more domestic size than the Bosco, it ain't no Cremina either. Indeed, I wonder, given what the designer of the machine has written in his blog, if he is going to continue to distribute the Cremina in the UK.

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    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    There is a lot of information and civilised discussion about this machine on another forum, you know the one, where all the Aussie Lever nuts wax lyrically.

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    Name that machine ?..

    Aaaah, that's the one where the designer of said unnameable waxes lyrical, Eh?

    Hmmm... Dejavu...

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    I thought from the subject line that this thread was a naming competition for the machine.

    My submission...

    THE FUGLY LEVER

    ...unless the machine is going to be flush mounted into a wall cavity in which case I would go for

    SLIGHTLY LESS FUGLY

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    Senior Member chopinhauer's Avatar
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    Oh if we are looking for a more suitable name than the official one - Londinium 1, I suggest "THE LEVIATHAN". Or since the designer wants to differentiate his machine from the STREGA, then "THE WARLOCK".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    I thought from the subject line that this thread was a naming competition for the machine.

    My submission...

    THE FUGLY LEVER

    ...unless the machine is going to be flush mounted into a wall cavity in which case I would go for

    SLIGHTLY LESS FUGLY
    I was trying to be diplomatic. At the moment, it's a face only a mother could love.

    You'd want to hope it is just a box in which to hold the bits as a proof of concept rather than something which vaguely resembles a design which might go to market.

    When you have to look at something every day, you need to like what you see....

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Looks like something one might use to tap a keg at a pub in Newtown.

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    Personally, i put "Function" before "Form" .
    If this machine produces the cup it makers intended it to, then it wouldnt matter if it looked like a trash can for all i care.
    Few "Pro-sumer" espresso machines have much visual attraction beyond a shiney surface, with only the occasional one displaying a hint of a curved surface, so its not as if this will be an "ugly duckling" amongst a flock of swans.

    Hmm?.. do i detect a possible business opportunity along the lines of aftermarket "customized " bodywork for many of these SS boxes ??

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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    I think we should wait until we see the final product before we start commenting on appearance. I don't think B52's picture of a version 1 prototype is up for proper scrutiny.

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    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    I thought from the subject line that this thread was a naming competition for the machine.

    My submission...

    THE FUGLY LEVER

    ...unless the machine is going to be flush mounted into a wall cavity in which case I would go for

    SLIGHTLY LESS FUGLY
    I thought the topic was GUESS the name of the machine.

    If we start to discuss looks (and dimensions) then:
    Londinium 1: 550mm(d) x 320(w) x 320 (h)
    Bezzera Strega: 455mmD x360mmW x 450mmH
    Quick Mill Achille: 500mmD x 355mmW x 770mmH

    A picture of all three. No comment on looks, just a visual comparison.
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    You seem to have overlooked the Cremina at 200mm x 270 mm (long) x 330 mm high.


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    Name that machine ?..

    I'm thinking... I'd call it "Fred"

    Yes, on good days it would be "My mate Fred"

    And on bad days, well it would be, "Fuk You Fred"

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    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    You seem to have overlooked the Cremina at 200mm x 270 mm (long) x 330 mm high.

    No I did not. It is in a different league.
    I posted comparisons of three similar looking lever machines, with a similar size group head and 58mm baskets. A comment was made as to the looks of the new kid on the block. I have posted pictures of two similar machines for side by side comparison.
    To me they are all stainless steel rectangular boxes with a lever group mounted to the front of them. Different sizes, but all look similar to me.

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    Name that machine ?..

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
    ?...
    ... have posted pictures of two similar machines for side by side comparison.
    To me they are all stainless steel rectangular boxes with a lever group mounted to the front of them. Different sizes, but all look similar to me.
    Albeit that one of them is a test-bed prototype and the other two are production models...

    Perhaps if you wrapped the other two in pallet cling wrap, it might be a fairer comparison... :stir

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
    No I did not. It is in a different league.
    I posted comparisons of three similar looking lever machines, with a similar size group head and 58mm baskets. A comment was made as to the looks of the new kid on the block. I have posted pictures of two similar machines for side by side comparison.
    To me they are all stainless steel rectangular boxes with a lever group mounted to the front of them. Different sizes, but all look similar to me.
    Ahh ! .. I got the impression you were comparing dimensions.......but the Cremina is certainly in a different league from that point of view also !

  24. #24
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    Aren't they talking up 1500? If so, that probably places this machine in pointy end rather than extreme?

    I gather that there will be another high quality spring lever competitor coming to market in about 12 months as well.

    The proportions are a tad "out" for me at present in that the depth of the drip tray does not work for me. I guess it may be to stop it tipping forward.

    Nevertheless, gotta love a lever for simplicity and the size of the bullseye.
    Last edited by TC; 15th September 2012 at 08:22 PM.

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    Senior Member SniffCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Aren't they talking up 1500? If so, that probably places this machine in pointy end rather than extreme?

    I gather that there will be another high quality spring lever competitor coming to market in about 12 months as well.

    The proportions are a tad "out" for me at present in that the depth of the drip tray does not work for me. I guess it may be to stop it tipping forward.

    Nevertheless, gotta love a lever for simplicity and the size of the bullseye.
    Any clues Chris? Something from Izzo?

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    ..Aren't they talking up 1500? If so, that probably places this machine in pointy end rather than extreme?
    It will be a close call, add Freight, duty, GST, and exch rate......never mind any "upgrades" or options.


    how about this one ?
    .....already available here, but never mentioned ?


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    Senior Member SniffCoffee's Avatar
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    What's that one? Your picture is too grainy...

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    Looks like a Fracino 'retro' 1 group.I couldn't find it on the Fracino site, some places list it, but not in stock.I'd assume its special order only. 7 litre boiler, couldn't find out if it was tank or plumb only

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniffCoffee View Post
    Any clues Chris? Something from Izzo?
    No sniff. Not GI.

    I regret there is nothing which I am able to share at present as I am sworn to secrecy. What I can assure is that it will be worth the wait and will take things to the next level.

    I'm hoping that my next personal machine will be the first to hit our shores and it will be time to move on from my GS/3.

    Chris

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    Almost finished...Still waiting for water/steam taps..


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    And finally the finished article..
    ..complete with glass side panels so you can see the shiny bits inside



    These shiny bits ...

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    And the QuickMill Achille 0996 will be hitting the Australian market soon by a CS Sponsor.

    Here's the specs.

    - Professional lever group;
    - 4,5 lts. copper boiler - Automatic recharge;
    - Boiler with electronic niveau fill probe;
    - Niveau glass;
    - Stainless steel anti-burn steam nozzle;
    - Stainless steel anti-burn water nozzle;
    - Volumetric pump - Professional thermostat;
    - Certificated safety valve;
    - Safety system with pump and heater stop;
    - External rechargeable safety thermostat;
    - Stainless steel cup warmer;
    - Switch for use with water tank / direct water connection;
    - 3 lts. water tank;
    - Manomer to see the pressure in the boiler;
    - Direct water discharge in the drip tray;
    - With 1 and 2 exits filter holder.
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    For those that havent already caught up with it, this is the final product & the man behind it.
    Neat video..
    LONDINIUM I: a short film from Londinium Espresso

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    looks like ol' Reiss went overboard on production costs and blew the PR budget.... that was truly cringe-worthy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffee_machinist View Post
    looks like ol' Reiss went overboard on production costs and blew the PR budget.... that was truly cringe-worthy.
    hehe....and the cup guard budget!

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    It probably is a very nice machine. Somehow, and bear in mind that I am a complete Lever fan, it doesnt quite have everything nailed down. It is a machine that has been designed to fulfill one mans concept of what a Lever pull should be, and in that regard, Im sure it has succeeded, but it doesnt float my boat.

    Its a commercial machine period. Looks commercial, as big as a commercial and feels like a commercial. Good luck with talking the lady of the house into having it in her kitchen on a work counter when the unit is almost the same depth. It takes up an inordinate amount of space and eye room in the kitchen, and if you have a modest unit, it kinda just sits there glowering at you.

    I would have prefered to have seen more of the brass work utilised in design on the outside (to break up the acres of S/S look) of the machine, perhaps even given it the once over Italian designer concept. As I have no interest in seeing the interior, which just sits there doing nothing anyways, Had there been moving parts and escapes of steam and this and that. Id have considered it, I would go for the S/S sides. So now I have this box which sits on the work surface looking like, well a box with a lever and other protusions on the front.

    I also dont like the handle. Its circa early Dick Smith to be functional, great for the job but..... I want to feel smoothness in my pull, under my fingers, not various thicknesses of material..

    Is this nit picking? Of course it is... Its my money, and it doesnt quite look like it would get the seal of approval to go in a home environment. Would I put it in my restaurant or coffee shop? Again.. it depends on whether I wanted it on display as a feature or not. I would see me having a more expressive casing for it to slide into, and then the whole purpose of it has been defeated.

    Would I buy it? No heat rack, no WoW factor, expensive ish... big... no woman appeal...

    Not yet.

    And please remember, this is my opinion. Opinions are like noses, everyone has one. Doesnt make me right, just makes my wallet stay closed.

  37. #37
    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyw View Post
    It probably is a very nice machine. Somehow, and bear in mind that I am a complete Lever fan, it doesnt quite have everything nailed down. It is a machine that has been designed to fulfill one mans concept of what a Lever pull should be, and in that regard, Im sure it has succeeded, but it doesnt float my boat.

    Its a commercial machine period. Looks commercial, as big as a commercial and feels like a commercial. Good luck with talking the lady of the house into having it in her kitchen on a work counter when the unit is almost the same depth. It takes up an inordinate amount of space and eye room in the kitchen, and if you have a modest unit, it kinda just sits there glowering at you.

    I would have prefered to have seen more of the brass work utilised in design on the outside (to break up the acres of S/S look) of the machine, perhaps even given it the once over Italian designer concept. As I have no interest in seeing the interior, which just sits there doing nothing anyways, Had there been moving parts and escapes of steam and this and that. Id have considered it, I would go for the S/S sides. So now I have this box which sits on the work surface looking like, well a box with a lever and other protusions on the front.

    I also dont like the handle. Its circa early Dick Smith to be functional, great for the job but..... I want to feel smoothness in my pull, under my fingers, not various thicknesses of material..

    Is this nit picking? Of course it is... Its my money, and it doesnt quite look like it would get the seal of approval to go in a home environment. Would I put it in my restaurant or coffee shop? Again.. it depends on whether I wanted it on display as a feature or not. I would see me having a more expressive casing for it to slide into, and then the whole purpose of it has been defeated.

    Would I buy it? No heat rack, no WoW factor, expensive ish... big... no woman appeal...

    Not yet.

    And please remember, this is my opinion. Opinions are like noses, everyone has one. Doesnt make me right, just makes my wallet stay closed.
    Welcome to CS. Great first post.
    Buy a Cremina.
    I and many others that I have talked with like this machine. It is not perfect, but very few machines are. If you do not like it no one is twisting your arm to buy it. If you think you can bring a better machine to market and make a buck out of it, go ahead, I do not see hoards of people rushing to do this. You seem to have a bug up your backside with Reiss and his concept. He is forking out the bucks so he is making the decisions. If you don't like his design do not buy it. A first post that does nothing but bag a product that many see as a solution they have been waiting for, is poor form.
    The commercial aspect and look of this machine is its major attraction. It is not a glorified show pony, but a concept based on a proven lever group that delivers the goods. I know what this group is capable of and enjoy espresso from a Bosco every day. If you want a machine to deliver the goods you have to base it on a large lever group. Other machines in this class as mentioned above, all look similar. If you want a pretty toy there are plenty of overpriced toys on the market. The people that this machine is marketed at, want a work horse with minimal maintenance.
    I see no need for a cup rail, but that is my preference. The handle is standard on a multitude of machines. The biggest flaw in your entire post is your whinge about the price. You obviously have no idea on what lever machines sell for, as this is the best priced unit on the market. At circa $2500 it has no competitors in its class. Many have been wanting a lever at this price, and can now obtain one. If you want Reiss to make the changes you so dearly desire, contact him, open your wallet and put your money where your mouth is. I am sure he can custom build a unit to your specifications.

    Reality check people. If you do not like the machine buy something else. If you want a lever at a good price that will make great espresso, here is your solution. If your wife does not like the machine, trade HER in for a newer model....problem solved.

    Personally, I would love to see lever machines built to the designs used in the 1950's (eg Gaggia), but fear that the demand is way too small and the cost too high to make this feasible. The commercial lever market is small and mainly evident in southern Italy. In commercial environments there are very few lever machines in operation. I think we are very fortunate that we now have three machines to choose from for the home market. [Others like the Cremina are in a different class]. If these do not satisfy your needs for the perfect lever home machine, build your own. I would rather buy one and enjoy the coffee.
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    I guess thats the last time garyw will express an opinion on the forum...I had a laugh..nice work bosco.....

    Gary thanks for highlighting your thoughts its always good to hear alternative views on what appeals to different people...and welcome to CS

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    HI Bosco

    Im sure if it were a car, your opinions would be wide and varied. The fact that there are limited options available for lever pulls, what is it, 3? you feel I should be grateful for the choice?

    I made an opinion, and it seems somewhat similar regarding styling in preference of a design to yours., and you call it poor form and a whinge regarding aspects of my comment. I had a laugh.. Go design your own etc...

    Firstly, I stated, Im sure it is a very nice machine. Secondly, Australia pays through the nose for all things imported, electrical and otherwise, what with import duty and GST etc so you guys are hit in the wallet hard. This will be moderately priced for you...

    Secondly, your condescension regarding my comments are wasted. You responded from your personal viewpoint and opinion, the same as I wrote from, and somehow managed to re iterate all the points I made. Kinda redundant.

    Its not perfect. I said that.
    He made it, he called the shots. I said that.
    The lady of the house wont go for it.. your solution is to change the lady. Hmm.
    Dont buy it.. you know, I said that too.

    You dont know me Mr Bosco, and if you dont like an opinion that more or less agrees with your own, but feel you have to rip it apart... it really is a waste. Im perfectly aware of what it costs to make a machine, and Im perfectly aware of how to make a machine.

    So thanks for your welcome, that was appreciated, and thanks for agreeing with my post. I hope you have a pleasant evening.
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    Welcome to CS garyw and well said, might I say. It's a shame that your quite obviously qualified statements were pounced on, but I guess that's the nature of the web!
    For me I agree with Andy, it's a fugly machine. And the video was a load of poorly produced, narcissistic so 'n so, he could have done a voice over and shown less (none) of himself reading the script and more of the machine doing all of it's stuff, I might have dozed off during the enthralling presentation........ did I miss the steam wand demo? and what's with using water from the machine to heat cups? aren't we supposed to be building machines with smaller carbon footprints? using the latent heat of the machine casing has been around well before we heard of carbon pricing, so why the backward step? I wouldn't be putting my ACFs on it.
    A question for those who have actually seen this machine......... is there any venting for internal heat to escape? The proximity of heat and electrics is damaging over time and hard to avoid in 1 group machines and although it's a lever it still has circuitry. Might get mighty hot.............good for heating cups tho'!!
    Last edited by chokkidog; 24th November 2012 at 10:12 PM. Reason: missing word

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    My favourite was the close-up of the extraction, complete with channelling and a massive dead spot. Could they not do another take...?

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    GaryW 2 Bosco_Lever 0.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Welcome to CS garyw and well said, might I say. It's a shame that your quite obviously qualified statements were pounced on, but I guess that's the nature of the web!
    For me I agree with Andy, it's a fugly machine. And the video was a load of poorly produced, narcissistic so 'n so, he could have done a voice over and shown less (none) of himself reading the script and more of the machine doing all of it's stuff, I might have dozed off during the enthralling presentation........ did I miss the steam wand demo? and what's with using water from the machine to heat cups? aren't we supposed to building machines with smaller carbon footprints? using the latent heat of the machine casing has been around well before we heard of carbon pricing, so why the backward step? I wouldn't be putting my ACFs on it.
    A question for those who have actually seen this machine......... is there any venting for internal heat to escape? The proximity of heat and electrics is damaging over time and hard to avoid in 1 group machines and although it's a lever it still has circuitry. Might get mighty hot.............good for heating cups tho'!!
    Thanks for the welcome chokkidog.

    The opinion presented, was meant to be an objective one which, if I were the manufacturer, would be considered as given, and either dismissed or parts of it thought about. NOTHING is more useless than saying, "we dont have much choice, they all look the same, buy it or not."

    I choose not to purchase it for the reasons stated. Im one customer lost. It might be because Im a dickhead, or it might be because I have a valid viewpoint. In any event, Im not going to be an owner. Does it matter that it makes good coffee? yes it does. Does it matter that I have concerns that it will not complement a domestic setting? well I think it does... and unlike some, the opinion of the woman of the house, matters more than the visuals of a machine that I dont care for to start with, but will have because its this or nothing.

    There are heaps of choices of Lever machine available from Spain or Italy. A few have been through my hands. Im not stuck for Lever machines, Im stuck for a domestic one that hits the criteria. I can go right now and buy a British made single lever machine that looks similar, a little cheaper and has an amazing service dept. I can even get it dual powered for a touch more money.

    Anyhows. As far as this thread goes, there is nothing more I can contribute to it other than repeat, it doesnt float my boat. I will be viewing the machine at some point, either in the showroom or at a trade show, but Im not going out of my way to do so. My reasons stand and thats about all I can say.

  44. #44
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    So I watched it again, this time I didn't doze off!! Yes, it is vented, sort of, at the rear, you can see it when the machine is backlit, early in the vid.
    C_M ....... do another take on the shot? yeah, they could've done take two on the milk pour as well and for a video made in 2012, why would you sit next to a bag of green with crop 2010 in such plain view? Gives your bean clients much needed confidence, I guess. (!!) :-0
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    Hmm ? .. not much love in this thread lately..
    Niggle at the machine design
    niggle at each other
    niggle at the pro mo video
    niggle at the man in the video
    another go at each other

    infact,..looking back on this forum, there has been mostly negativity towards the L1 from day 1 ...I wonder why ?
    If it lives up to its makers claims, there could be a lot of humble pie to be eaten...
    ..and of course it could cause a few issues in the mid -top end espresso machine retail trade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    Hmm ? .. not much love in this thread lately..
    Niggle at the machine design
    niggle at each other
    niggle at the pro mo video
    niggle at the man in the video
    another go at each other

    infact,..looking back on this forum, there has been mostly negativity towards the L1 from day 1 ...I wonder why ?
    If it lives up to its makers claims, there could be a lot of humble pie to be eaten...
    ..and of course it could cause a few issues in the mid -top end espresso machine retail trade.
    I agree blend52, to the level that if this machine was going to be stocked by a sponsor of CS would it get such negativity from site sponsors? I ask the site sponsors (who have commented) to site back, read your posts, fence sit and absorb your comments for what they truly are - then see it in the light of a CS member....... Reflection might be in order here!

  47. #47
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
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    Does anyone think that this thread needs to be moved so it can actually get the attention of people in the price ball park for it, shipped to Australia it will come in at around $2600.

  48. #48
    TC
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    niggles et al
    And the usual niggle from the resident niggler...

    I am sure the machine will be fine and there will be no need for anyone to consume any humble pie. The internal finish of the luxe variant is very nice and without the pump and tank will suit many a purist. The box design continues to do nothing for me, but mine is but a single opinion.

    The lever group is used elsewhere and it works. You take one, get a boiler, stick it in a box, connect the requisite bits and hey presto- you have a lever machine. Add an autofill circuit and perhaps a pump if you wish.

    Some will choose to like the design, some may choose an alternative and as per usual, to each his own!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    And the usual niggle from the resident niggler...

    I am sure the machine will be fine and there will be no need for anyone to consume any humble pie. The internal finish of the luxe variant is very nice and without the pump and tank will suit many a purist. The box design continues to do nothing for me, but mine is but a single opinion.

    The lever group is used elsewhere and it works. You take one, get a boiler, stick it in a box, connect the requisite bits and hey presto- you have a lever machine. Add an autofill circuit and perhaps a pump if you wish.

    Some will choose to like the design, some may choose an alternative and as per usual, to each his own!
    I have been reading CoffeeSnobs for the longest time, and also have been in and out of Australia since 1979 visiting and working and mostly, sampling the offerings of the bean wherever I can. Im not unused to the psyche of my spiritual home.

    Its not for me to tell anyone whether to buy this machine or not. Given the hype that went along with its progression towards completion on coffeesnobs itself, which I followed closely, the disappointment I felt for the aesthetics on completion and unveiling, has NOTHING to do with whether it is a good product or not, it has more to do with the fact that it is not quite what I hoped for in being the "answer" to my singular viewpoint for a domestic machine.

    I personally like a cover over my engine on the car, yet some like the workings on display, and this machine gives the choice. However in the choice, I didnt want acres of S/S in a box either. When putting a coffee machine in a coffee shop, one of the deciding factors for the choice is both front and back of the machine..what the customer sees is equally as important as the usability. I dont feel, as a domestic user, that this need has been addressed. This is why Italian and Spanish coffee machine manufacturers continue to pay attention to the rear of the machines looks to this day. The looks of the machine played a part in choosing the San Remo Verona for daily use in the small cafe at the roastery here in the UK. A superb workhorse with class and style. People love it. I love it and it isnt even a Lever pull.

    All what has been said is a reflection of my reaction to, what ostensibly, is a new espresso machine that is now on the market. I wish nothing but good sales for the manufacturer for having a go and bringing it to completion. It is his dream machine, his concept of a coffee machine and his love and money. I havent been persuaded enough at this point in time to make it mine. Perhaps as his vision of the machine is tested against market response, he will be happy with the results, perhaps he will adapt and change a few things. I will keep looking and watching and if and when our concepts merge, my money will be his and his machine will be mine. Thats how it works.
    Last edited by garyw; 26th November 2012 at 07:47 PM. Reason: spelling bandit.

  50. #50
    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyw View Post
    The looks of the machine played a part in choosing the San Remo Verona for daily use in the small cafe at the roastery here in the UK. A superb workhorse with class and style. People love it. I love it and it isnt even a Lever pull.
    Voila! The commercial interests are finally revealed.

    The discussion here is about the L1, yet you make constant references about commercial machines which are a different ball game. I am well aware of the number of commercial lever machines on the market, but the point is until recently there was little choice for the home market, both here and abroad. Now we have three. We should be celebrating this achievement not denouncing it. But this is so typical of this forum. Unless the product is sold by a site sponsor it is deemed rubbish. Once a site sponsor sells it, or even touches it, it miraculously achieves universal endorsement and is worshiped by all.
    Jonty likes this.



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