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Thread: The Art of Listening

  1. #1
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    The Art of Listening

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Caught an episode of Q&A this week which had Jordan Peterson on the panel. He is a clinical psychologist and a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto, I hadn't heard of him before so took him on face value but was a little shocked at how he was being constantly attacked. He seemed very articulate and when allowed, backed up any comments he made with researched facts. The thing that continually amazed me was how his comments were being twisted to try to fit someone else's narrative. It was as if some trigger words or phrases pushed the play button on the pre-recorded responses of his opponents. Maybe he plays the devil's advocate somewhat in an attempt to get people thinking rather than blindly following an agenda. My main observation was that his opponents don't seem to listen to or comprehend what he is saying in context but rather re-structure his comments out of context in a manner that suits their purposes.

    Here's another interview that clearly displays this tactic-

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...terson/550859/

    In case you're interested here's the Q&A episode-

    https://www.abc.net.au/qanda/2019-25-02/10811138

    He has quite a number of lectures on YouTube in his role as a Professor of Psychology which I found gave a better indication of where he's coming from. It's a shame his detractors don't have the ability to clearly listen to his words rather than react to their pre-determined triggers and miss the point totally in many cases.

    If you really want to exercise your comprehension skills, check out the Jordan Peterson & Russell Brand discussions on YouTube. High impact cerebral workouts.

    e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2S58rH0PAw
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 2nd March 2019 at 01:31 PM.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    I wonder if the professor is recovering?

    "Peterson has been on a strict diet consisting only of meat and some vegetables, to control severe depression and an auto-immune disorder, He stopped eating any vegetables in mid-2018."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson

  3. #3
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Yes, saw that. He is somewhat controversial and often appeared exasperated by some of the hostility displayed towards him by panel and audience members. He published a self-help book last year called "12 Rules of Life: an Antidote to Chaos" which I'm yet to read but from what I've researched, appears to be a series of essays on how to deal with hardship and take responsibility for your life.
    “It’s all very well to think the meaning of life is happiness, but what happens when you’re unhappy? Happiness is a great side effect. When it comes, accept it gratefully. But it’s fleeting and unpredictable. It’s not something to aim at – because it’s not an aim. And if happiness is the purpose of life, what happens when you’re unhappy? Then you’re a failure. And perhaps a suicidal failure. Happiness is like cotton candy. It’s just not going to do the job.”
    That fits in with my own yin-yang philosophy (eg happiness doesn't exist without unhappiness) and life is a journey, not a quest to reach arbitrary goals. I'll reserve my opinion until I've read it.

    Peterson’s 12 rules


    Rule 1 Stand up straight with your shoulders back
    Rule 2 Treat yourself like you would someone you are responsible for helping
    Rule 3 Make friends with people who want the best for you
    Rule 4 Compare yourself with who you were yesterday, not with who someone else is today
    Rule 5 Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them
    Rule 6 Set your house in perfect order before you criticise the world
    Rule 7 Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)
    Rule 8 Tell the truth – or, at least, don’t lie
    Rule 9 Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don’t
    Rule 10 Be precise in your speech
    Rule 11 Do not bother children when they are skate-boarding
    Rule 12 Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street

  4. #4
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Interesting interview, I think it speaks reams about the interviewer and her technique, I'm sure journo's are trained to adopt adversarial attitudes in order to generate viewer interest/outrage, take your pick, lawyers excel in these methods.

    Unfortunately many, perhaps most viewers enjoy these (bear baiting) tactics, if the interviewer can rattle the victim so much the better.

    Will watch the Q&A interview as well as the Peterson Brand discussion later when I have a little more time.

    Thanks for a thought provoking post.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus View Post
    Yes, saw that. He is somewhat controversial and often appeared exasperated by some of the hostility displayed towards him by panel and audience members.

    That fits in with my own yin-yang philosophy (eg happiness doesn't exist without unhappiness) and life is a journey, not a quest to reach arbitrary goals.
    I can understand his exasperation, seems the (perpetually offended) types feel only one side of a debate (theirs) should be allowed to see the light of day, in fact intelligent debate is rapidly becoming a thing of the past, if you disagree, disrupt or shout down.

    Re Yin and Yang, I feel the same about Coffee, food, wine etc, if you constantly partake of the finest it rapidly becomes the norm, where to from there?

  6. #6
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus View Post
    Yes, saw that. He is somewhat controversial and often appeared exasperated by some of the hostility displayed towards him by panel and audience members. He published a self-help book last year called "12 Rules of Life: an Antidote to Chaos" which I'm yet to read but from what I've researched, appears to be a series of essays on how to deal with hardship and take responsibility for your life.
    I think rather than controversial he is better seen as thought provoking. Having now viewed a few of his university lectures and interviews from a couple of years back, I get the feeling he is frustrated by lazy thinkers and those that jump aboard the "pseudo moralistic" and "virtue signalling" trains without a great deal of constructive thought.
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 2nd March 2019 at 01:27 PM.
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    I can understand his exasperation, seems the (perpetually offended) types feel only one side of a debate (theirs) should be allowed to see the light of day, in fact intelligent debate is rapidly becoming a thing of the past, if you disagree, disrupt or shout down.
    That's why I found the Jordan Peterson/Russell Brand discussions a refreshing change. A little heavy going with the amount of concentration that was required on my part but a great example of intelligent, articulate and respectful discussion.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    I think the animosity towards him comes mainly from the fact that he espouses what some see as 'the old-fashioned' values of reality, rationality and responsibility.
    There are some who do not live in reality, function on emotion rather than rationality and do not wish to accept any responsibility for their behaviour.
    They look for the 'quick fix' to their problems which is often a tablet of some kind and prefer not to have to put any real effort into making their life a better place.

    That groups in our society try (and succeed) in stifling any views/opinions they do not like is outrageous and an indictment of the government/organisation that allows it to happen - more so if it is a university.
    Free speech and indeed anything other than blatant 'hate speech' or incitement to violence should be regarded as our greatest privilege in a free society and nobody should be allowed to attempt to stifle it.

    The Q&A program referred to was very entertaining and thought provoking due to the mix of personalities on the panel. I thought Peterson made sense on every issue he addressed.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    I think rather than controversial he is better seen as thought provoking. .
    One can be both controversial and thought provoking.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus View Post
    ...He published a self-help book last year called "12 Rules of Life: an Antidote to Chaos"...
    If self-help books really worked, there wouldn't need to be so many thousands of them out there. Most purporting to be life's one true path to fix whatever ails you.


    Ps right up there with:
    * One true religion.
    * One true love.
    And (the jury is still out on this one):
    * One true technique for making great coffee.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Yeah but you'd have to concede that it is more about the ability of individuals to help themselves than it is about the potential efficacy of the book/plan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Yeah but you'd have to concede that it is more about the ability of individuals to help themselves than it is about the potential efficacy of the book/plan.
    I would concede that it is more about the inability of individuals to help themselves. Why else would anyone buy these books?

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    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Yeah I like him, and have only heard of him recently. I found nothing he said to be offensive, and definitely found it refreshing.

    Yeh you can see easily those that have an agenda and a particular worldview when they're questioning him. They only filter what he says through the context and perception they live in and often it just infuriates them even more.

    Pseudo-moralistic folk tend to jump onto some cause/movement in order to project their own guilt/anger onto the world, what they want to disown and not face. Peterson calls them out on this, love it!
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  14. #14
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    The reason he gets up so many noses is because of controversial views like these:

    “The idea that women were oppressed throughout history is an appalling theory.”
    Islamophobia is “a word created by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons”.
    White privilege is “a Marxist lie”.
    Believing that gender identity is subjective is “as bad as claiming that the world is flat”.

    For a different perspective, have a read of
    https://bigthink.com/21st-century-sp...deas-explained
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  15. #15
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus View Post
    One can be both controversial and thought provoking.
    One can also set out to be controversial or just be held up as controversial by those who don't agree with your point of view.
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 4th March 2019 at 10:09 AM.

  16. #16
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    One can also set out to be controversial or just be held up as controversial by those who don't agree with your point of view.
    True. You made that point in your OP (speculating whether Peterson is playing the devil's advocate). Controversy is ultimately determined by the audience rather than the speaker (ie it's up to the listener to decide whether they agree or disagree).

    Given my previous post, are you still surprised that Professor Peterson's views are attacked?

  17. #17
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus View Post
    Given my previous post, are you still surprised that Professor Peterson's views are attacked?
    Not surprised at all when context is ignored. Certain alleged comments taken in isolation rather than in the context of his full narrative are not a true representation of his intended message in my opinion. An individual's personal interpretation and their willingness or ability to unbiasedly hear what is said rather than what they choose to hear can lead to offence when none was originally intended.

    The label of being Controversial is largely used as a demeaning insult these days. A minority of very vocal individuals hell bent on pushing their agendas declaring him to be controversial isn't surprising. When the ability to listen to an opposing viewpoint is lost, personal insults and a mission to tear someone down usually follows.

    Professor Peterson has stated that like people in general, he has his flaws. One that he mentions is that these days he has a quick temper. This can be seen in a number of interviews he has done when the interviewer has stopped listening and is only interested in pursuing a strategy of attacking him. Personally I admire his restraint and can understand his frustration with people's inability to just listen and hear what is being said. This is when I believe he begins to play the Devil's Advocate.
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    Unfortunately, just like the rest of us, even our intellectual elites always turn out to be 'all too human'.
    'Dear Leader' for life? No thanks.

    Ps opinions are like a***holes - everyone's got one.

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    Hmmm. So, the professor is really good at explaining, by means of biological evolution, how we as a species ended up where we presently are. He is also convincing (or at least convinced) in how he points to solutions to all our problems, again with the help of evolution. But staying with "what lobsters do, we must do" does not provide a way forward. And that's where I think he really fails. The circumstances are such that if we sit back and just let evolution do its job, it will soon enough be without us.

  20. #20
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knastoer View Post
    ........But staying with "what lobsters do, we must do" does not provide a way forward. And that's where I think he really fails" ..........
    My interpretation is that he is simply pointing out certain behaviours/traits are hardwired into us and other species through evolution and genetics. He doesn't suggest we sit back and let evolution do it's job but rather recognise it's influence upon us. The lobster analogy for some reason seems to have people pre-occupied with lobsters (Yum).

    He offers his opinions based on years of practising as a clinical Psychologist, study and research which led him to become a Professor of Psychology and obviously has an extensive depth of knowledge in regard to research data to back up his comments.

    I think one of the reasons people misinterpret what he is saying is that they tend to quickly skim over the non-sensationalist content about him online. He can be long winded at times and wander off on tangents in an attempt to have closed minded people hear what he is actually saying when they continually choose not to.
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 4th March 2019 at 10:37 AM.
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCD View Post
    I would concede that it is more about the inability of individuals to help themselves. Why else would anyone buy these books?
    Maybe to broaden their frame of reference? ........."The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

    (Ignorance rather than insanity might be a better fit in this classic quote).
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  22. #22
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Dignity and respect were displayed in abundance along with a thorough knowledge of his chosen field by Jordan Peterson.

    His ability to maintain composure while answering questions from those with obvious barrows to push is remarkable.

    One of the comments made during the debate was questioning the inability of left wingers to respond to disagreement with their views without becoming angry/hostile or resorting to interruption.

    The antagonistic young woman in the audience was promptly put in her place when she addressed her question to "Peterson" when he first referenced respect in his reply to her, as I've commented recently elsewhere, to gain respect you must first show respect.
    Respect.jpg

  23. #23
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Maybe to broaden their frame of reference? ........."The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

    (Maybe ignorance should replace insanity in this classic quote).
    Morning CafeLotta.

    Re the self help question, we see it displayed constantly right here on Coffee Snobs, some can and some cant.

    To many of among us the simple things in life remains a constant mystery, right down to the basic task of making a cup of coffee.
    Mystery.jpg
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Morning CafeLotta.

    Re the self help question, we see it displayed constantly right here on Coffee Snobs, some can and some cant.

    To many of among us the simple things in life remains a constant mystery, right down to the basic task of making a cup of coffee.
    Largely a legacy of the internet age. Look to a screen for step by step instructions without much (if any) analysis of the information provided to you. The ability to gather information from multiple souces, digest it and make an informed decision of you own is quickly disappearing.
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  25. #25
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Is the sheep that has broken away from the flock always the one that is lost?

    Not Lost.jpg
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  26. #26
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Largely a legacy of the internet age. Look to a screen for step by step instructions without much (if any) analysis of the information provided to you. The ability to gather information from multiple souces, digest it and make an informed decision of you own is quickly disappearing.
    I tend to agree, though the internet can be a valuable resource, if your able to sort the sh!t from the clay.
    Last edited by Javaphile; 4th March 2019 at 02:03 PM.
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    This is a great thread, finding I'm hitting the "Like" button repeatedly, I had a laugh.
    CafeLotta, agree with you about the effects of the internet age, perhaps we'll grow out of it eventually? Sadly the ability to sift through the information available without favour and then process to reach an informed decision is fast becoming a lost life skill.
    Its human nature really for many, after all why go to all that "bother" when there's a sugar-coated, gift-wrapped solution right in front of you?
    Not big on the whole herd-following thing, prefer to do my own digging and sifting. I enjoy a good mystery, I had a laugh.
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  28. #28
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kjarsheim View Post
    Sadly the ability to sift through the information available without favour and then process to reach an informed decision is fast becoming a lost life skill.
    Its human nature really for many, after all why go to all that "bother" when there's a sugar-coated, gift-wrapped solution right in front of you?
    Quite true. I think that it will become an increasingly essential life skill to be able to discern a gift-wrapped solution from one wrapped in wool.

    Surprise.jpg
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  29. #29
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Quite true. I think that it will become an increasingly essential life skill to be able to discern a gift-wrapped solution from one wrapped in wool.

    Surprise.jpg
    Probably a little more PC/less vulgar than my simile.

  30. #30
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    Something else that is becoming more and more obvious over time, is the lack of the ability by a lot of people to even ask the right questions, notwithstanding to then be able to discern which information is pertinent to the resolution of the problem...

    Mal.
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  31. #31
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    The definition of OCD is doing the same thing over and over again without any expectations at all.
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    OCD
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    Who needs messiahs, professors or a BS laden internet when all you need to understand the human condition is an exploration of your inner self, with the shields down and sans the rose coloured glasses. A tall order for most, impossible for some.

    Ps takes the art of listening to a whole new confronting level.
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  33. #33
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCD View Post
    Who needs messiahs, professors or a BS laden internet when all you need to understand the human condition is an exploration of your inner self, with the shields down and sans the rose coloured glasses. A tall order for most, impossible for some.

    Ps takes the art of listening to a whole new confronting level.
    Very true, guides can absolutely help along the way, but takes your own willingness and honesty to go within to confront stuff that may be quite uncomfortable and disturbing. But confidence comes with it the more you do it, and it's not as scary as we make it out to be in our anticipation
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  34. #34
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCD View Post
    Who needs messiahs, professors or a BS laden internet when all you need to understand the human condition is an exploration of your inner self, with the shields down and sans the rose coloured glasses. A tall order for most, impossible for some.

    Ps takes the art of listening to a whole new confronting level.
    If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

    Heaven forbid. What sort of world would we be living in then?



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