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Thread: AFL finals

  1. #1
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    AFL finals

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Woo Hoo Port Adelaide won tonight. Yippee.

    Poor Ben Cousins hurt his leg (I cannot get any sympathy for him). I loved Dennis Commettis comment " hes gone down to get some ice for it" ;D

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    Re: AFL finals

    Quote Originally Posted by lucinda link=1189173949/0#0 date=1189173949

    Poor Ben Cousins hurt his leg (I cannot get any sympathy for him). I loved Dennis Commettis comment " hes gone down to get some ice for it" ;D
    lucinda,

    Sure Ben made a mistake - a big mistake- and his biggest was that he was caught!

    Who of us hasnt made a mistake or done something foolish in their life? But we arent placed on a pedestal and worshipped.... so when we stuff up few notice and even fewer care....

    We have ridiculous expections of the rich and famous.... they are supposed to be super humans and when they arent we crucify them (but forget that they are in fact only human and fallible like the rest of us).

    Drug taking is endemic in our society.... even in schools.... and dont forget alcohol and even our beloved caffeine are drugs - as is Panadol etc which some people cant start their day without ! It is funny that we accept that taking many unnecessary drugs is OK..... whilst others lead to our utter condemnation of that person.

    If ALL football players (and other sporting groups) were drug tested after EVERY event..... we would probably have few left playing sport......

    Dont crucify someone simply because they were caught - and dont forget forgiveness is the sign of a true caring human being.

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    Re: AFL finals

    We do have to remember however, that sports people are role models for our children. So are we saying to our children that taking illicit drugs is acceptable? The only punishment is a brief stint in rehab?

    Im all for zero-tolerance. Especially in sports where the players have huge visibility, especially to young people.

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    Re: AFL finals

    Java,

    While I agree forgiveness should not be forgotten, I do beleive the AFL (And Im a AFL fan bigtime) are way too soft on there drug policy...

    And your point about drugs isnt all the balanced... Caffiene, Panadol etc doesnt hurt you and moreover doesnt hurt people around you.... the "other" drugs are another story and I believe anyone being caught using them should be dealt with very harshly.. especially considering these people are in high places in society.. if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.... these guys are being paid bucket loads of cash and thats fine... but theres consequences if you foul up.... I meen come on, he was branded a hero when is returned..this is just outright WRONG and sends a shocking message to the younger kids in the game and in life in general...

    And your suggestion that wed have not many people in the sport if they were drug tested after everyone game is nonsense... all it shows is well have clean players - no drugs... this is the message that should be portayed.

    Thats the end of my rant! :-)

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    Re: AFL finals

    Quote Originally Posted by nunu link=1189173949/0#2 date=1189216962
    We do have to remember however, that sports people are role models for our children. So are we saying to our children that taking illicit drugs is acceptable? The only punishment is a brief stint in rehab?

    Im all for zero-tolerance. Especially in sports where the players have huge visibility, especially to young people.
    Exactly Nunu... Exactly...

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    Re: AFL finals

    Your comments are quite compassionate JavaB, and mine arent directed at you....

    While some of the rich and famous are elevated to superhuman status, others put themsleves on pedestals. I find it interesting that when stars do drugs, its a mistake, and when its someone else, its a crime. This viewpoint is also reflected in our (and many others) legal system. I for one do not have any expectation that football stars might be superhuman, in fact, I am generally surprised if they are not apeish :P

    Peter Sterling said recently of Mr. Johns something along the lines of....I admire him coming forward and telling the truth. I just wish someone would do it before they got caught. My admiration for Sterlo went up a notch or two after that remark. ;)

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    Re: AFL finals

    Although I did not want to turn this into a drugs in sport debate I will start my rant...

    Some of these players are paid up to 750k. That is a lot of money in anybodys terms.

    One year of football salary would buy me one or two houses.

    Java B, while I totally accept that people make mistakes. Athletes like Ben Cousins are grown ups, they know the difference between a legal and an illegal substance. They *also know how much people - especially young kids - look up to them. Whether thay like it or not, and whether they want it or not they become role models just by reaching the high echelons of their sport.

    Ben Cousins wasnt just caught - he was seen so off his face on such a regular basis in the nightspots of Perth week in week out, that it was common knowledge throughout the whole city that the AFL and West Coast could not keep a lid on it any longer.

    Testing positive for performance enhancing or illicit substances should be followed by a 1-2 year (or more) ban - just like any other sport. If it ends their career, so be it. They chose to take the substances they have to accept the consequences.

    The AFL has to stop protecting and making excuses for these players as they are damaging their own image by doing so.

    end rant
    and

    GO THE POWER!!!

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    Re: AFL finals

    lucinda just play for one year then and retire.



    I managed to get through high school without taking part in the drug culture.
    I hear that the schools marijuana plantation was only recently removed.

    I drank a little in my younger days but only got rotten twice.
    One time was my bucks night.

    I only drink a little wine and some beer occasionally these days and definitely not to excess. I love vodka and tequila if I have the occasional spirit but thats even rarer these days.

    My kids, both having been brought up learning karate, also dont touch drugs.
    They do drink a bit of alcohol occasionally.

    Maybe its the martial arts discipline, probably not.
    There are plenty of people in the community who dont use drugs and also arent sports people.

    Its all about responsibility and self control.

    If these sports people caught with drugs have justified to themselves that they werent hurting anybody (before they got caught) then their moral compasses are out of wack.

    They admit afterwards that theyve hurt people; family, friends, kids that idolise them.

    I think they need to be punished more severely than ordinary folk simply because their actions affect more people.

    Suppose you have a young impressionable child that survives a drug overdose and you find out later that they justified taking the drug in the first place because a famous footy player they looked up to was known to take the same drug.........................what would you want to do to that "star"?

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    Re: AFL finals

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcS link=1189173949/0#3 date=1189216976
    Java,

    While I agree forgiveness should not be forgotten, I do beleive the AFL (And Im a AFL fan bigtime) are way too soft on there drug policy...

    And your point about drugs isnt all the balanced... Caffiene, Panadol etc doesnt hurt you and moreover doesnt hurt people around you.... the "other" drugs are another story and I believe anyone being caught using them should be dealt with very harshly.. especially considering these people are in high places in society.. if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.... these guys are being paid bucket loads of cash and thats fine... but theres consequences if you foul up.... I meen come on, he was branded a hero when is returned..this is just outright WRONG and sends a shocking message to the younger kids in the game and in life in general...

    And your suggestion that wed have not many people in the sport if they were drug tested after everyone game is nonsense... all it shows is well have clean players - no drugs... this is the message that should be portayed.

    Thats the end of my rant! :-)

    Marc,

    Sports team members reflect reality in society today - sadly. There is far too much drug use in society...... I even know of one well respected QC who uses heroin (probably helps his eloquence in court no end).....

    Whilst our elite athletes do get paid huge salaries, can we in all honesty expect them to be better that the rest of society? Yes, they are a role model - yes, it is portraying a very bad image to others especially children..... but to expect them to be perfect when the rest of us are so flawed in many ways I believe is unrealistic.

    Also treatment for "performance enhancing" substances (cheating) and other illegal substances is, and needs to be, different. It is too lenient in some cases - probably - but still different.

    The biggest killers of other innocent people are acceptable drugs - nicotine (less acceptable these days), alcohol and Id include caffeine in there as well (and I smoke, drink alcohol and coffee by the way). Caffeine is a stimulant used by many to mask tiredness.... and when drivers - especially truck drivers - use the drug it can create the illusion of abilities that the person doesnt have.... resulting in fatal road crashes....

    Most of us are far too eager to "gloss over" so called social drug use - whilst condemning totally certain "hard" drugs...... realistically we cant have it both ways. How many of us have broken the law by speeding (even in school zones with children around) but arent remorseful (unless of course caught by the police)..... many even brag about their efforts at speeding from time to time.

    Not being a religious person, I still find the saying "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" a good mantra for us all to live by. The rest of us need to look closely at all our own behaviour before condemning the behaviour of others.

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    Re: AFL finals

    I have to back JavaB here and the quoted mantra. I personally take a hard line on drugs and certainly dont approve of the behaviour of the likes of Ben Cousins or Andrew Johns, the damage they do as a role model to those who look up to them, and the not sorry till theyre caught attitude. However sometimes when youre in the thick of something thats wrong, the difficulty of getting out is much greater than any moral imperative to do so just on the off-chance you get caught. Its often not until you do get caught out and youre pulled out that you can stand back and see the full picture of what you did. Ive heard of several cases where people who have committed horrendous crimes were glad when they finally got caught (I think the Yorkshire Ripper was one of these but dont quote me), yet the perfectionists could ask why didnt they give themselves up? Simply because its just too hard to bring yourself to do it and so much easier to plough on ignoring the conscience, yet when someone else does its a relief to face it and have the deceit and guilt off your chest.

    I would also add that yes, people in public office are paid enormous amounts of money and catapulted into the limelight (often by those who will later be the first to pick fault when they fall I might add); however they are just an ordinary person but often with more pressures by virtue of their role, whether it be sports-related, political or whatever. Shane Warnes just a normal bloke (for the purposes of this post :)) yet his prestige as a sportsman put him in a position most of us would never face, and objectively would never want to face with the world looking on. Not for a moment do I condone what he did, or what Ben did or Bill Clinton or whoever, and one part of me would like to shoot them down in flames; but at the end of the day I wouldnt want to face the same pressures they faced so Im compelled by that admission to treat them as I would want to be treated in the same situation, and that aint an outcast for life.

    That all being the case, when someone does fall from grace, yes they should face at least the same penalties as everyone else, yes they should be made to understand the enormity of what theyve done and the extra burden of the people theyve let down, and be prepared to take the extra medicine for it. But having done their time, admitted their fault and determined to do better, surely we must be prepared to give them another opportunity to make good.

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    Re: AFL finals

    I dont do drugs. Have no time for those who do -- must have rocks in their heads if they ignore the myriad of publicity about the dangers, the illegality etc etc.....

    Having said that.....Football STARS? *Stars? *These are *kids in *their early 20s. *It is probably our fault we place them undeservedly on pedestals. *We turn them into superhuman superstars -- yet they are punk kids in their 20s.

    We expect so much of the, role models, purer than pure --yet they are still kids in their 20s.

    Perhaps if we stopped fawning over them, and had REAL role models... whatever they do legally or illegally wouldnt be treated with the awe it does not deserve.

    End of rant.


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    Re: AFL finals

    I was 19 when I got married.
    By 20 I had a house to put a roof over the head of my lovely wife.
    By 21 shed given birth to my son.
    By 24 I had a daughter as well.

    Just because youre in your 20s doesnt mean you have to be a punk kid.
    In our society you are an adult at 18, it used to be 21; either way they are old enough to understand and be responsible.

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    Re: AFL finals

    Yep but legally responsible and allowed to vote doesnt mean they have the maturity to control themselves and deal with the situations their position allows them to encounter.

    Just because someone is an excellent sportsman doesnt mean they are automatically a good role model about how to live in general. The point was made in the middle of Shane Warnes breakup with Simone that such people are actually extremely narrow in many ways because their whole life is focused on one narrow field of achievement. They are expert at what they do and rightly applauded and looked up to in their area of achievement, however we err in extrapolating this hero worship to all other parts of their life as Robusto said. Their focus on their chosen area of skill means they have little opportunity to develop into a rounded individual (in a mental sense) and as such are rather UNqualified to be a general role model for others. In general the level of all-round role model pedestalising is relative to their achievements in their narrow field and not to their standing as an individual, which would far more qualify them for a good role model than just someone who happens to be an excellent sportsman or businessman.

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    Re: AFL finals

    What I was trying to point out Greg, using myself as an example, is that you can be mature and responsible at that age.

    I agree with your point that they havent had broad enough life experience, which is what makes for their shortcomings.




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    Re: AFL finals

    I cringe when I hear media reports of drunken louts, hoons, drag racers, young hoods, rowdy revellers -- refered to as "An 18 year old man was last night charged with..."

    Man. At 18? Because it was decreed by an act of parliament.....? It takes more than a chorus of "ayes" in the chamber when the question is put to bestow maturity and manhood.

    Yes, agree, TG, you can --and perhaps YOU can -- be mature and 20.... but I am afraid that in general maturity is bestowed by a greater age and experience.

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    Re: AFL finals

    I had a laugh.

    People think I show maturity and wisdom now, almost 30 years later.

    I wonder if theyve got it the wrong way around.

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    Re: AFL finals

    I agree with both Greg and Thundergod....

    There are young people that are very responsible, mature and would make excellent role models but we (the parents of our children) dont heap praise on them, or encourage our children to be like them..... but we do so with sporting "stars"...

    Unfortunately sporting people live life in the fast lane - they have to as they are all too soon burnt out. They have a very narrow (and false) view of life and yet we put them on a pedestal and worship them..... and naturally so do our children. I dont believe these people want to be idols - they do of course want the money...... and they, in the main, arent suitable people to be role models.

    Those who should be role models are deemed too boring, too uninteresting - dare I say it too "normal"!!

    I recently had a discussion with the Principal of my sons private school here in Perth where bulling had become a serious issue. Those participating in this pursuit were, in the main, sports "jocks" where the over the top competitiveness and slagging of the opposition are a way of life...

    The concern I had is that this school puts far more emphasis on sport than academic achievement.... and the Headmaster agreed that this was both true - and unhealthy - and wants to change this attitude.

    The answer is not to condemn those who we have chosen to place on the pedestal when things go pear shaped - as they generally will - but to choose more appropriate people to use as role models in the first place.

    There are plenty of young (and not so young) people who would make a great role model - all it needs is the desire to make it so. And sporting hero worship is not the way to go.

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    Re: AFL finals

    It is a difficult ideal to aim for.
    You have the media to fight for a start.

    My children never suffered from peer pressure and never idolised any sports stars.
    Maybe because they achieved enough themselves through karate.

    My daughter is already a good role model at 23.

    She has a black belt in karate and holds a Level 1 Coaching Certificate accredited by the Australian Institute of Sport.

    She recently got herself a 3 month secondment at work which will hopefully lead to further career progression.

    Today she signed the paperwork for her first new car (courtesy of the pay rise from the new job).
    (Ive never owned a new car)

    She finished Uni last year; 2 degrees!

    Last year she also bought a house, which shes renting out until she gets married.

    She puts 100% effort into everything she does.

    Shes been that way all her life.

    When she was 2 years old we found her on the floor of her bedroom studiously beavering away with papers and crayons.

    When we asked her what she was doing, she replied "homework".

    It seems she was jealous of her brother who had just started kindy.

    Of course her mother and I have to take a little credit.

    Yet Shane Warne blamed his mom for that tablet incident. Tut, tut.

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    Re: AFL finals

    I think many agree that these people arent the ideal people as role models, however the fact is they are by virtue of their exposure to us all and they will continue to be as long as theres a media. That being the case, they are human so they will fail like everyone else (despite their large financial incentives not to), and therefore it reinforces the whole point that they need to be treated like everyone else, and given a second chance like everyone else. Expecting perfection and resorting to satirical jibes when they inevitably fail is both unrealistic and unfair.

    BTW TG nice work with your daughter! Mines only two so weve got a way to go yet!

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    Re: AFL finals

    Thanks.

    With a father as particular as yourself, she should see that hard work and attention to detail are appreciated.

    Your tampers are things of beauty that will appreciated for many lifetimes.

    If she finds for herself something similar, something she does well that people appreciate, she will be happy.

    And what father doesnt want happiness for his children?

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    Re: AFL finals

    I agree TG, it is important to bring up your children to be honest with themselves first, and to see each individual as just that ..individual, not prejudging but accepting and then doing with the relationship as the see fit, that is an important lesson to teach our kids.

    Our 4 yo has also been doing "homework for 2 years hmmm.


    Oh, getting back to the topic of this thread, as it has been hijacked in a pleasant way........................

    GO PIES







    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1189173949/15#17 date=1189258648
    It is a difficult ideal to aim for.
    You have the media to fight for a start.

    My children never suffered from peer pressure and never idolised any sports stars.
    Maybe because they achieved enough themselves through karate.

    My daughter is already a good role model at 23.

    She has a black belt in karate and holds a Level 1 Coaching Certificate accredited by the Australian Institute of Sport.

    She recently got herself a 3 month secondment at work which will hopefully lead to further career progression.

    Today she signed the paperwork for her first new car (courtesy of the pay rise from the new job).
    (Ive never owned a new car)

    She finished Uni last year; 2 degrees!

    Last year she also bought a house, which shes renting out until she gets married.

    She puts 100% effort into everything she does.

    Shes been that way all her life.

    When she was 2 years old we found her on the floor of her bedroom studiously beavering away with papers and crayons.

    When we asked her what she was doing, she replied "homework".

    It seems she was jealous of her brother who had just started kindy.

    Of course her mother and I have to take a little credit.

    Yet Shane Warne blamed his mom for that tablet incident. Tut, tut.

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    Re: AFL finals

    Ive enjoyed reading the intelligent & reflective opinions expressed on this thread - its obviously a subject that invokes passionate thoughts, especially amongst those with kids (I have 3 year old twin boys, so can totally understand). I agree on the whole with the common tone underlying all comments, that being that we tend to dismiss reckless behaviour commited by high profile sports characters vis-a-vis drugs (I refuse to call them stars or heroes as this just perpetuates the whole separate, undeserved pedestal status that the media builds them up to be). Id just add that drugs & sport have been closely linked for quite a while, and todays sporting culture is just a modern version of the old days. I remember watching Wide World of Sports 25 odd years ago as a testosterone fuelled teenager & seeing certain brands of tobacco companies advertised EVERYWHERE - especially the cricket. Also what about Boony guzzling down a carton of stubbies on a flight from Oz to the UK & setting some sort of record - then being bloody praised for it? The drugs & the hero-worship have always been there, just today the drugs are different. Id also add another word that I cant recall anyone yet talking about - respect. Starts in the home with us as parents defining the moral boundaries. Its interesting seeing my boys develop, because as twins they get to test the boundaries with each other & theyre at the same stage of learning - sharing has been drummed into them right from the beginning, & it pays dividends when I see them play/interact with their mates. Anyway Ill get off the ol soapbox - I need a long macc after all that tiring thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: AFL finals

    Im not an AFL support so cant stay on topic.

    At karate I teach Respect & Discipline.

    1- Respect for fellow students.
    2- Respect for ones self.
    3- Self discipline.
    4- Discipline (from me).

    If the students have enough of 1, 2 & 3 theres never any need for 4.

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    Re: AFL finals

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1189173949/15#22 date=1189309181
    Im not an AFL support so cant stay on topic.

    At karate I teach Respect & Discipline.

    1- Respect for fellow students.
    2- Respect for ones self.
    3- Self discipline.
    4- Discipline (from me).

    If the students have enough of 1, 2 & 3 theres never any need for 4.
    Thundergod,

    That is the difference between a pursuit with real moral standards and something like football where winning is the only goal and nothing less is acceptable..... things like sledging, intimidating your opponent, even physically targeting certain good players is part of the sport and encouraged..... And much of this occurs behind the play!

    Respect in football.... whats that????? ::) ::)


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    Re: AFL finals

    Totally agree TG - I did a bit of tae-kwon-do at Uni, & it definitely helped me focus & appreciate the importance of respect & discipline. Didnt continue with it after Uni though ... that would explain the lack of self-discipline when it comes to drinking too much coffee!!!!!!

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    Re: AFL finals

    Well said JavaB.

    Karate is a way of life.
    Football type sports are completely different.

    Ive always thought the team aspect makes some sort of difference.
    When you are in a ring fighting someone else, theres no one else to help you.
    It comes down to the individuals own skill and resolve.

    Then theres the "forms" competitions.
    Thats all about perfecting a set routine of moves.
    Definitely an individual pursuit.


    Go the cats!

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    Re: AFL finals

    Come on grasshopper ... Im sure intimidation also occurs in karate as a strategic tool to weaken the resolve of ones opponent???

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    Re: AFL finals

    True.

    I once congratulated a competitor in the junior section of a competition on his 2nd place.
    He was confused as he hadnt yet fought the match.

    At the time I had progressed convincingly to the final match for the senior division and this poor kids opponent was my younger cousin.

    I merely explained that my cousin could beat me.

    All polite, no sledging, very civil.
    (My cousin won)

    Go the pies.

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    Re: AFL finals

    I like your style mate , and i agree with 123...........4
    I started Judo at school age 9 finished as a smartass at age 21, trained with Ceberano for a few years then with a teacher at school for a number of years doing karate!!!(15 in all this discipline),
    At 17 I was small and working as a bouncer......I reckon I had maybe 3 fight in 4 years, fighting is for dopes . the discipline I learned taught me how to talk, relate,understand and respect,Works wonders.

    Go pies.

    (greatr grandfather grandfather father me mine ......all pies must be in the dna!!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1189173949/15#27 date=1189318619
    True.

    I once congratulated a competitor in the junior section of a competition on his 2nd place.
    He was confused as he hadnt yet fought the match.

    At the time I had progressed convincingly to the final match for the senior division and this poor kids opponent was my younger cousin.

    I merely explained that my cousin could beat me.

    All polite, no sledging, very civil.
    (My cousin won)

    Go the pies.

  30. #30
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    Re: AFL finals

    Lucinda and Coastal,

    Enjoy your AFL finals series.

    The light you see at the end of the tunnel is GEELONG thundering towards you!

    :-)

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    Re: AFL finals

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim link=1189173949/15#29 date=1189373277
    Lucinda and Coastal,

    Enjoy your AFL finals series.

    The light you see at the end of the tunnel is GEELONG thundering towards you!

    :-)
    Gee they look good too... unreal form they are in! I didnt predict that they would slaughtered the Kangers..

  32. #32
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    Re: AFL finals

    Me neither.
    Thought it would be way closer.

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    Re: AFL finals

    Just remember - Port beat you a few weeks back. They can be beaten.

    My tip is for a Port v Geelong final.

    It can be one by either team.

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    Re: AFL finals

    Geelong will win the Flag this year... Would be nice for a VIC team to win it for a change... and I live in NSW ;-) But as a Carlton supporter. You know, the team that loses to get draft priorities ;-) Judd is coming ;-) hehehehe

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    Re: AFL finals

    Ah yes - carlton. The team that loses to get draft priorities and then makes poor choices.

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    Re: AFL finals

    Quote Originally Posted by lucinda link=1189173949/30#34 date=1189498392
    Ah yes - carlton. The team that loses to get draft priorities and then makes poor choices.
    Yep, thats them >:(

  37. #37
    Senior Member coastal_coffee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Torquay
    Posts
    315

    Re: AFL finals

    What a match. Go Pies


    Good old C OLLINGWOOD forever they know how to play the game,
    side by side they stick together,
    to uphold the MAGPIES name,
    see the barrackers a shouting,
    as all barrackers should,
    oh, the premierships a cake walk for the good old
    C OLLINGWOOD team.


    as the duck said

    stho do you sthupose you think thats funny DO you?

    youll keep Mr F


    collingwood



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