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Thread: Australian bushfires

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    Senior Member CoffeeHack's Avatar
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    Australian bushfires

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi Snobbers

    I'm feeling quite safe here in suburban Adelaide, however am watching on in horror as the south coast of NSW turns to ashes - an area where I grew up, lived & worked for 35 years.

    Just hoping that everyone from the community are safe and if impacted by any potential fires to make rational, EARLY decisions. Extra-dark roasted beans can be easily replaced, whereas roasted humans can't.

    Take care everyone!
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    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Having had an unwanted taste of this in Queensland we are shocked to see the extent of this disaster in NSW and Vic.
    The clear message is that if the drought continues we are all at risk in the future, regardless of where we live.
    I was listening to comments the other day that said that the rainforest is now potentially at threat as it is drier than it has been in living memory and if damaged, will take many generations to regenerate.
    One hopes that our well-paid politicians are earning their money thinking about how we will deal with the threat of continued drought and the inevitable bushfires that result.
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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    One hopes that our well-paid politicians are earning their money thinking about how we will deal with the threat of continued drought and the inevitable bushfires that result.
    There-in lies the most significant obstacle to achieving anything resembling anything close to the desired outcome...

    Mal.

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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    I grew up on the south coast of NSW and experienced several severe fires that included being evacuated to the beach, running around the spare block next door putting out spot fires and directly fighting fires in my teens. I don't remember seeing anything of the ferocity of the current situation. Black Saturday in 2009 wouldd have to be Australia's worst bushfire experience but the current catastrophe isn't over yet, we're only 1/3 the way into summer.
    Meanwhile our PM, while not chilling in Hawaii, is telling us everything is under control and his government's climate policies will save us. Yeah right, we can see how well that's going.
    Last edited by flynnaus; 3rd January 2020 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Typos
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Sadly more and more people are choosing to live in aesthetically pleasing highly fire prone area's without contemplating the risk, what we are now seeing is a reflection of these choices.

    "This ABC article from Dec 2018 gives some insight.
    The closer your home is to the bush, the more at risk you are. The CSIRO's life and loss database analysis of 110 years of deaths in bushfires, found that:

    • 50 per cent of deaths happened within 10 metres of a forest,
    • 78 per cent happened within 30 metres of a forest, and
    • 85 per cent happened within 100 metres of a forest."



    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-...lives/10606144

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Interesting post Yelta, it's easy to forget that living in the middle of the fuel pile is dangerous even if it is picturesque.

    As someone that witnessed both Black Saturday and Ash Wednesday firsthand I often wonder why other people (and bureaucrats) memories seem so fade so fast when it comes to building near the bush. I've been guilty of it too, when we were rural house hunting 6 years ago we found some lovely places in and around natural bush which have stupid council restrictions that ban removal of dead trees and fallen timber, even on your own nature-strip/road frontage. Today, the same area has dead wood piles 4 feet high and it's uncomfortable even driving through in summer. These were also areas that were flattened by Ash Wednesday 30 years prior and again in 2006.

    Watching the current fires makes me sick in the stomach, I feel for the people and critters in the affected areas and I feel deep anger at those that stop reasonable maintenance of bush-land.

    Of course there is a very limited amount of preventative protection you can do to protect during crazy high winds and fast moving fires but doing nothing certainly hasn't worked.
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    Senior Member flashpixx's Avatar
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    I seem to be having a good run of it at the moment.
    I'm an East Gippsland local prior to moving to WA, with many family members across the area.
    None of my family are in their homes at the moment, all have evacuated to safer places.
    Still I'm worried for them. How hard would it be to leave your family home of decades not knowing if you will see it again.
    Very impressed with Dan Andrews and the Vic Gov response, Fed Govt perhaps not so...

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    Yelta, very accurate info but your 'more and more' somewhat implies the johnny come latelys are at fault. The reality is anyone who built new in the last 10 years within 100 metres of vegetation had to meet a BAL rating (Bushfire Attack Level) which goes up to 40 then has a FZ rating - flame zone. These houses have a better than average chance if the code was met properly and with forethought. The people I feel sorry for are those who bought from someone who has built prior to the last decade. People rarely gave serious consideration to the issue. I think back to my grandparents and aunties and uncles farms, not one building on their property would have survived bushfire - not the farmhouses, shearing sheds, schoolhouse or the tin machinery sheds. The poor people who buy these older properties are very unlikely to have a lazy $100k lying around to upgrade fire protection, who would?

    Totally agree with Andy, the amount of organisations and individuals who want to stop responsible land management is unbelievable. Everyone wants to live in the bush but no one wants to look at a black hillside for 6 months till the first shoots of spring come out.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Not implying 338, that's exactly what I'm saying, it's as plain as the nose on your face, the more people that choose to live in these area's the greater the number that will be adversely affected when the worst happens, similar to those who choose to live in flood prone area's.

    We are reacting as if nothing like this has ever happened in the past, on the 16th Feb 1983, 47 people died in Victoria and 28 in South Australia in the Ash Wednesday bush fires https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Wednesday_bushfires at the time we had 2 horses agisted on a property in the area, fortunately we were able to move them before the fire went through, so yes I have first hand knowledge, from that time on I vowed I would never live in a fire or flood prone area.

    I suspect in the future insurance companies will not cover risk in these area's or, if they do the premiums will be so high as to be out of reach for the average person.
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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashpixx View Post
    None of my family are in their homes at the moment, all have evacuated to safer places.
    Really sorry to hear their lives are upside down flashpixx but super happy to know they were smarter than those that think a garden hose is some sort of protection of replaceable material things.

    We had a Vic Emergency warning at home a couple of weeks ago, the first alert we got was basically "you're stuffed, too late to leave" which wasn't quite true as the wind was still blowing in the wrong direction and we have North, South and East exit roads as the fire was running about 8km parallel to the West of us. Miles of open farm land between us and because the wheat had just been cut, there was a foot of stubble that the fire was tearing through. No roads in there and some rough terrain but the CFA got on top of it late that night before the wind change but it took 3 days to put it out even with water bombers refilling from B-Double tankers at the local airport (5km away). It was a sleepless night with the horse float hooked-up and animals herded into the small yard ready to drive away. It's the closest we have been to saying goodbuy to the house and certainly our most nervous and that's just a 3 day matchstick compared to the month long bonfire to the North of Gippsland.

    Hopefully the southerly is helping the Gippsland fires burn back on itself and gives a window of reprieve for those fighting it.

    Dan Andrews and the Vic Gov response
    ...but Dodgy Dan only got interested when the ski fields caught alight, Buchan and Eastern Vic have been burning for a week but there are bugger-all votes out that way.

    I don't expect anything more real from any of the pollies except a daily highvis/hardhat photo op. These are the same pollies that banned cattle grazing in the high country and the cattlemen were the only ones managing the bush and access trails (for free too!).

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    Hi Yelta, I see your point. I think these fires feel a little different. In previous catastrophic fires we thought things were dry, but it doesn't sem as dry as this. My brother and his family live in Huskisson on the nsw south coast. They are in town 200m from the beach but back onto the golf course. Probably one or two km on the other side of the golf course there is a lot of scrub. He has been getting cold embers and burnt leaves for a fortnight covering the yard and house.

    Last night the RFS invited the residents of the street to leave. This is a little seaside vilage, not really the bush or a farm. We argued this morning as the streets males are staying and have sent their families away, I didn't really agree. At least the street made a pact to leave the moment they start losing against the spot fires. The point is the area is green but not much more than my suburb, I live 2100m from the flags on the centre of the Harbour Bridge. These are unusual times.

    I have friends in the town of Bermagui, two days thefe we suggesting people evacuate to Bermagui, today they were told to evacuate from Bermagui. Again they are in town. Unusual times.

    The thing to be most grateful for is the loss of life is so low given the size of the firefronts

    Andy, sorry to read about the close call. Good luck
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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Some observations. The infringement into the bush and into farming land as our runaway immigration continues unabated is a major problem.

    No reservour has been built in Victoria since 1979...the population has probably doubled since then.
    Many homes lost in the black Saturday fires in Victoria, in which 170 people tragically died, were in bush settings and without house insurance. Can you imagine the stupidity of that. And they then expect the government/community to rebuild their house.

    I live in a very urban setting with no danger of bushfires yet pay $1000 a year for insurance without fail.

    Greenies are quick to scream "climate change" as the demon responsible for everything...But in their blind wisdom scream just as loud at any suggestion the forest floor needs clearing of excess fuel.

    And they want to wring every ounce of political mileage from what really is a tragedy...a tragedy we have had before and will have again.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robusto View Post
    Some observations. The infringement into the bush and into farming land as our runaway immigration continues unabated is a major problem.

    No reservour has been built in Victoria since 1979...the population has probably doubled since then.
    Many homes lost in the black Saturday fires in Victoria, in which 170 people tragically died, were in bush settings and without house insurance. Can you imagine the stupidity of that. And they then expect the government/community to rebuild their house.

    I live in a very urban setting with no danger of bushfires yet pay $1000 a year for insurance without fail.

    Greenies are quick to scream "climate change" as the demon responsible for everything...But in their blind wisdom scream just as loud at any suggestion the forest floor needs clearing of excess fuel.

    And they want to wring every ounce of political mileage from what really is a tragedy...a tragedy we have had before and will have again.
    I gave this a like Robusto, not because I like whats happening but I agree with your logic.
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    338
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    Robusto, 100% correct.


    Ps they also shaft us in the city for insurance also, haven't seen sub $1k for at least a couple of decades. Not that it helps to know we all pay heavily. I just hope they pay promptly to those in need.
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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    338, on a side note, car insurance used to reduce as the car aged...now it keeps going up without fail despite the car's value reducing. When you challenge the insurance companies they give a pro-forma BS response about risks in our area rising. Really? Yet I've never made a claim for decades--aren't you insuring my risk as much as the car?
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    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Stay safe all...

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    Enough of the politics! Agree with Simon, stay safe and later there will be time to point the finger...

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    Senior Member flashpixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robusto View Post



    Greenies are quick to scream "climate change" as the demon responsible for everything...But in their blind wisdom scream just as loud at any suggestion the forest floor needs clearing of excess fuel.
    Sorry but your comment is sensationalist, bandwagon tripe which has been demonstrated by those that know to be absolute rubbish: (apologies for the lengthy text)
    NSW Rural Fire Service’s Shane Fitzsimmons

    When he talks about bushfires the easy laughter leaves Shane Fitzsimmons and he is intent and systematic. His words are urgent; his expression, solemn. Fire management, he tells me, is complex, difficult and extremely emotive. Fire is different from any other hazard or disaster: it has a high-risk tempo and an intensity that is unique. Unlike with storms or earthquakes, you’re not dealing with the consequences – managing fire means you’re making decisions as it ignites and flares in front of you.
    Fitzsimmons has been the commissioner of the New South Wales Rural Fire Service since 2007. The reality of his job, he says, is that he doesn’t really get a break from it. “My job, and that of so many of our people, is one of 24 hours… It is a business that doesn’t conform to the conventional working week. If I look at the past six weeks, we are averaging 500 to 900 people deployed across fire grounds every day. We have more than 72,000 volunteers – that’s 90 per cent of our workforce – working shoulder to shoulder with salaried counterparts. For all fire practitioners the responsibility weighs very heavily.” Fitzsimmons’ father was killed in a bushfire during a hazard-reduction burn a few kilometres from where we meet, beyond Sydney’s north at the Rural Fire Service at Cowan. We are surrounded by the grey-green reaches of Ku-ring-gai Chase National Park, spreading over 14,882 hectares from St Ives on the north shore to the Hawkesbury River at Brooklyn and Barrenjoey Head at Palm Beach.
    Fire behaviour is driven by underlying conditions, Fitzsimmons says. The structure, composition, terrain and aspect of the vegetation, and the condition of available fuel, determine the risk and danger. How dry is it? Is it surface fuel, intermediate-level fuel or forest canopies? Overlay the weather: is it hot, dry and windy? Strong winds result in spotting activity: embers burn kilometres ahead of the fire front and start new blazes. The pyro-convective influence of large fires can create their own weather system, resulting in lightning activity and more ignitions. Spot fires accelerate the main fire front. Fire will spread faster with an increased slope. Grassfires burn and spread two to three times faster than bushfires. Ninety per cent of homes catch fire and burn down through ember attacks – living streets away from bush or grassland still puts you and your property at risk.
    We have settled our homes and townships in fire paths, and we travel through places where fire naturally burns, Fitzsimmons says. The Australian vegetation and ecosystem has adapted through fire and much of it relies on fire for renewal and regeneration. “The earliest of stories from our Indigenous people … will demonstrate time and time again that Australia was a landscape that was often on fire,” he says. “The real challenge we have today is that right across Australia we have people in areas where, traditionally, fire would have burnt through. You get fires today – no matter where they start – that impact very quickly upon people and property and the natural environment. It is difficult to access some of that country. There are a lot of people who love their remoteness and isolation, but with that comes an extraordinary inherent risk.”
    Climate change, Fitzsimmons says, has been a consideration in the Rural Fire Service’s planning for more than a decade and the business is underpinned by that thinking. “The research indicates, and our experience validates, that fire seasons are becoming longer … and with a drought scenario you get increased intensification. The science indicates increased likelihoods of more frequent, more intense weather events, and longer, hotter, drier fire seasons – and with that comes more organisational planning. Longer and hotter fire seasons equate to shorter periods of opportunity to do critical hazard-reduction burning to reduce fuel loads. More than 50 per cent of that is done in the autumn period, but if that is being compromised we have shrinking opportunity for controlled burning. Our seasons are starting earlier and finishing later, but so too is the northern hemisphere’s… The seasons are starting to overlap each other. When we look at global resourcing: trying to access significant assets like aircraft – if the Americans or Canadians or Europeans are holding them longer, then our ability to get them earlier becomes compromised… You have competing contracts around the world.”
    He continues: “This summer we are expecting above-normal fire conditions driven by this extraordinary drought. The moisture level in the landscape is the lowest on record. Large tracts of NSW are absolutely moisture depleted. We are already experiencing a very early, a very intense, very devastating start to this fire season. The outlook for the next three months is dominated by above-average temperatures and below-average rainfall – there is simply nothing in the predictions for any meaningful rain: no normal rain, let alone drought-breaking rain. The risk is real – for people living in urban areas, too. As we hit the December–January period when we traditionally see some of our most intense and damaging fire seasons, there will be many more communities that come under threat.”
    It is the sound and the feeling of fire, Fitzsimmons says, that is not often spoken about: the intense heat and noise, the furious winds, blanketing smoke… Your visibility is gone, your breathing is compromised, your throat is dry, you are coughing, your eyes are full of smoke and dirt, you can be standing beside someone and they won’t hear you scream or shout.
    Research by the Rural Fire Service shows every time a fire impacts a community the overwhelming response is that the people affected didn’t think it would happen to them – and they wish they had done more, prepared more, Fitzsimmons says. He wants people to be on the front foot. Prepare. Log on to the website. Have a bushfire survival plan. Download the app. Doing those things now, he says, rather than when fire is bearing down on your property, can, and does, make all the difference.
    This article was first published in the print edition of The Saturday Paper on Nov 2, 2019 as "Heat of the moment". Subscribe here.


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    338
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    Flashpix, totally agree with what you are saying and the article. I am guessing what Robusto is saying is there isn't only one solurion or way to move on these issues. These aren't exclusive points of view. I deal with farmers daily, many have had the urban sprawl come out to meet them, then have to deal with the conflict of idealogies. One was telling me how he had a large thick windbreak which he was burning in winter, the neighbour called the Council, Police and Fire. He thought it was illegal and stated he didn't want to look at burn out bush. Same neighbour (how we got onto the subject) comes out everytime the farmer shoots foxes and shines a large spotlight around as far as he can see on the farmers property to warn the foxes. He doesn't do the same when the farmer has to shoot alive but half eaten lambs in the morning.

    All anecdotal, but there isn't just one solution here or one way. I can see both points of view but to move into an area then push your point of view, by calling authorities never negotiation isn't great.

    I think everyone agrees climate change is real and something needs to be done from a personal up to a governmental level. But Robusto comments about clearing fuel are valid and those who stood against it should look again at their position.

    Really we are in the midst of another Australian tragedy, there is no one solution and we shouldn't be pushing agendas at this time. Now is the time to do what we can for those in the middle of their own tragedies.
    Last edited by 338; 5th January 2020 at 12:23 AM. Reason: mistype on word lamb
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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    I think everyone agrees climate change is real and something needs to be done from a personal up to a governmental level. But Robusto comments about clearing fuel are valid and those who stood against it should look again at their position.
    The problem is that everyone does not agree that climate change is real, well anthropogenic climate change, that is. A great deal of the frustration towards political leaders is the fact that they were told this was going to happen but they didn't do enough to try to limit it.
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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    The Victorian government is beholden to the greens in so many policies, including land protection, as its rival party erodes Labor's support base and claims inner-city seats that once were Labor strongholds.

    The weak, failed minister for police, was also the failed minister for the environment, overseeing a confused, bewildered and greens-infested department of environment, land, water and planning.

    She abolished the annual clearing target of 5% of public land as recommended by the Black Saturday bushfires royal commission, wrapping the decision in some typical warm fuzzy nonsense about reducing risk to communities.

    One scientist said at least 10% should be the target.

    Greens are at the forefront of protests in forests, stopping hazard reduction burning.

    This is not bandwagon tripe.

    It is fact.

    In addition to the visible protests, they in the more powerful position of being bureaucrats who use the stroke of a pen rather an a placard do dictate terms.

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    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Hi
    I'm feeling quite safe here in suburban Adelaide ....
    Last year I went to a conference and one of the topics was the separation between your house and bush to have a chance of being defended. It's now recommended as 100m minimum and 250m is best if there are trees that can crown. I think many of you would be familiar with that concept of bush-house separation. What the person also mentioned is that modelling and tests show that the minimum separation between houses in a residential environment was 6m !

    In most Councils the minimum house to house separation is just 1m and that's what the developers use. The Canberra fires in 2003 showed that fires can enter and propagate house-house in suburbia.

    I don't feel that I'm 100% safe in in my suburb in Sydney.

    Mike
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    This local focus on lowering Australia's greenhouse emissions (globally 1-2%) being an answer to our climate problem is frustrating. These bushfires are contributing an immense amount of greenhouse gases as well as the loss of the vegetation that removes CO2 and releases oxygen. A more constructive focus for instance would be to strongly advocate for better first strike capabilities in the form of fire-fighting equipment and manpower to ensure that fires don't have a chance to spread as they have in the first place. Funding from Government is crucial. Also looking to find those with true Forest management experience rather the Greenie types who have planted themselves in the Dept of Sustainability and Environment here in Vic. There's good reason they're known as the Dept of Scorched Earth (DSE) due to their poor forest management. One of their feats was locking up many bush tracks to recreational 4WDs meaning that these tracks are no longer kept clear of fallen timber etc by the 4WD people. Access to some remote areas for firefighting is restricted as a result when it's most needed.

    Sending goods manufacture offshore to countries that are the main contributors to global greenhouse emissions is shortsighted. Closing down responsible local timber production in favor of the cheaper imported product from countries that don't have any real environmental protections likewise. This is where Australia contributes most to our & the Global climate problem, not through local emissions. Nothing wrong with aiming to do the best we can by improving local practices but sending the problem offshore has a much higher overall Global environmental cost with subsequent climate change consequences.

    Less hysteria and a bit more perspective is called for maybe?
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 4th January 2020 at 12:06 PM.
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    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    Assuming the data is correct, 1% plus fossil fuel exports makes about 3.5% contribution to global emissions by Oz. Australia is about 0.33% of global population.
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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Our emissions are 1.3% of the total world-wide.

    Yet the hysterical Greens are now using language like "climate criminals" aimed at government ministers and blaming them for the bushfires.

    1.3% of emissions is causing our bushfires?

    Yeah, people like Adam Brandt and Greta Thunberg are so expert in the ways of the world and are omniscient messiahs to be worshipped.

    I've even heard of calls to shut down every coal-fired power station in Australia, and stop all coal exports to big emitters like China.

    Simplistic and easy to say...but do we really want to become a third-world economy?
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonar View Post
    Assuming the data is correct, 1% plus fossil fuel exports makes about 3.5% contribution to global emissions by Oz. Australia is about 0.33% of global population.
    No doubt Coal Exports is an area that Australia should take a hard look at. Maybe investment in advancing clean coal technologies and making implementation affordable is a good place to start. The Coal producers should probably be funding this anyway as it's in their best interest to develop a better solution for third world countries, helping them in turn to live up to their global responsibility in emissions reduction. Having said that I think I read somewhere that the USA is 50% reliant on coal fired power stations for their electricity.

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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Coal is Australia's number one export earner, followed by iron ore and gold. Every hiccough in coal export revenue costs us plenty as it is, and affects our balance of payments, standard of living.


    It affects government royalties and revenues without which I doubt any government would have enough money with which to buy even a hose to deal with bushfires.
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    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Hi

    > Our emissions are 1.3% of the total world-wide.

    I use less than 1.3% of the Council and State roads so why should I pay for roads that other people use?

    > 1.3% of emissions is causing our bushfires?

    Past and continuing emissions have significantly contributed to the current global and Australian warming this decade. Warming and evaporation are not linear, it's higher than that. For each first crack in temp the atmosphere can hold 7% more water vapor and depending on the wind speed, surface evaporation (i.e. the drying of our forests, including rain forests) has been exacerbated over the last few decades. That has led to the extent and ferocity of the these fires. Emissions and bushfires is not a direct causal link but strongly correlated.

    > I've even heard of calls to shut down every coal-fired power station in Australia, and stop all coal exports to big emitters like China.

    Well if humans and our activity continue on the current trajectory by 2030, and if we then decide that we **have to act** the amount of catching up to forestall a second crack rise might mandate such an action across all countries. When it's an emergency all actions are on the table. So far the climate change predictions have been tracking the upper range of predictions and new studies are showing that the change is accelerating.

    > Simplistic and easy to say...but do we really want to become a third-world economy?

    Its not simplistic. It's complex science which can be communicated to citizens, mixed with economic trade-offs versus lifestyle choices, plus some media, industry and government pushing biased viewpoints with deceptive information* whilst other media, industry and govts understand the implications for climate change and are planning ahead.

    Misleading information example: Our Govt reiterating that our per-capita emissions have been decreasing so we''' meet our targets "in a canter".
    and an example of not a biased view point but a simple stupid one; Tony Abbott tells Israeli radio the world is 'in the grip of a climate cult' https://www.theguardian.com/australi...a-climate-cult

    Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by speleomike View Post
    Our emissions are 1.3% of the total world-wide.
    We have 0.3% of the world's population. We continue not to pull our weight as a country. Rome burns, ScoMo fiddles.
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  30. #30
    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    ... and here is a view point from overseas: MIT Technology Review:
    "Yes, climate change is intensifying Australia’s fires" https://www.technologyreview.com/f/6...tralias-fires/

    Mike

  31. #31
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Sorry guys. The planet has survived 7 billion years of calamities and catastrophes and will survive beyond your 2030 alarm.

    I don't believe a word of it.

    We are evolved humans on this planet. Every time we have a drink of water, eat a fruit, roast meat on the barbecue and everything else we do naturally is going to impact the environment.

    It is the nature of existence.

    The alternative is go back to the caves. Don't breed. Don't evolve. No thanks,

    I'm not saying be irresponsible and abuse our environment. Far from it.

    But I do not find the need to flaggelate myself in guilt as is the want of so many others. Including academics who should know better. I do not conveniently use climate change as the latest trendy lefty cause to hitch my wagon....much like opposition to US military bases was the trendy magnet that attracted them with their doomsday chants back in the 1960s and 1970s.

    Yes, the left always has to find a counter- culture issue with alarmist prognostication to berate us with, to assuage their guilt.

    If I am going to be influenced in my views, it certainly aint by a teenage girl who wags school, by Richard Di Natale and others of the Looney left.
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  32. #32
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Speleomike, you have used the argument of a climate change activist to justify climate change as the cause of the bushfires.
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  33. #33
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    The bookstore in the fire-ravaged village of Cobargo, New South Wales, has a new sign outside: 'Post-Apocalyptic Fiction has been moved to Current Affairs.'

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/03/o...te-change.html
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  34. #34
    338
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    For those who are worried about friends or loved ones in NSW - or in the midst of it and trying to locate where and how many fires are around them, this amalgamated map uses two sets of data from NSW RFS and almost live from Digital Earth - https://bit.ly/2sBKD9z - (link goes to an ArcGis map), has proven pretty accurate for a few people so far on the south coast for fires and road closures

  35. #35
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    A lotta people here are totally full of s!@#. Living in the bush/fire prone areas Yelta? Ya mug. My 88 year old Mum lives 75 metres from the ocean at Batemans Bay and she is in a fire risk zone at the moment, fearing for her LIFE.
    You really are a piece of work sometimes. My father is in permanent care in a home at Batemens Bay... didn't have a lot of choice about where he lives and can't be evacuated. My eldest sister lives two streets back from the
    ocean .... at Batemans Bay. Since when are paved streets, urban gardens and ocean proximity a poor choice for living in respect of fires?

    My other sister lives on a few acres out of Wagga and can't leave the 3000 head of sheep and cattle to fend for themselves. According to the (non) logic expressed in this thread she shouldn't even be be there so who TF is going to grow your food when every farmer
    in Australia lives in a fire risk zone?

    I survived the Black Saturday fires.... just. Had 300' flames over my head and photos to prove it. My vineyard was destroyed, shed and fencing vaprorised. Maybe I shouldn't have been there making wine
    for all you city tossers and oh so brave keyboard warriors.

    And don't get me started on the drivel posted by Robusto.... that argument, along with others here, is nothing but a vehicle to express political views like a dumb blunt instrument. Migrate to Trump land and join
    the oh so brave people who delight in attacking children who are old enough to have a world view.

    About the only thing here that makes any sense are comments about local council regulations.... and my council is run by right wing dumbasses.

    For the past two weeks I have lived in fear for the survival of my family while I witness others fear for theirs .... and for all the farmers, workers, holiday destination businesses who are suffering at the moment well.......I hope none of them are coffee snobs.

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    An American has done the research for us by getting our old newspaper reports to show we have selective memories. See:
    https://youtu.be/jMrV9qnmeeg
    Eighty Years of Climate Change by Tony Heller.

    The Australian today also refers to a thesis by Christine Finlay a Queensland based fire researcher who has concluded " there was a marked increase in the size and frequency of fires after 1919. This was when bushfire reduction operations increasingly moved away from traditional indigenous practices such as low intensity cool burning. "

    The current bush fire problems pre-exist climate change theory.

    Have a look at Captain Cook's Journal if you want to trace back to 1770, it is available online.
    http://southseas.nla.gov.au/journals/cook/17700501.html
    Last edited by WarrenK; 4th January 2020 at 05:29 PM. Reason: Added reference
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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Pretty sure I have expressed views here, like them or loathe them, without directing any personal abuse at fellow coffeesnob posters whose views are contrary to mine, or mine to theirs.

    But some can't help themselves and have to turn this debate and maybe every other contentious one, into a personal slanging match with name calling.
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  38. #38
    OCD
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    Quote Originally Posted by robusto View Post
    Pretty sure I have expressed views here, like them or loathe them, without directing any personal abuse at fellow coffeesnob posters whose views are contrary to mine, or mine to theirs.

    But some can't help themselves and have to turn this debate and maybe every other contentious one, into a personal slanging match with name calling.
    If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you, you're obviously not grasping the gravity of the situation.

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    338
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    Chokki, that link I posted is very effective for Batemens Bay - https://bit.ly/2sBKD9z - and shows real time hotspots while you can also get down to street level with it. Understand Batemens is cut off at the moment and your relatives may be without power, but you may be able to help them from afar. I have friends and a brother who have lost power at Husky and Vincentia, also saw Manyana has had none for 24 hrs. I would imagine the 'take cover' SMS from RFS has probably alarmed your mother no end. Good luck and best wishes for your family.
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    Best thing to do if you're not in it is to pull your sleeves up and assist, however you are able to. There's already sufficient hot air to keep us all warm.
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  41. #41
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    For those who are worried about friends or loved ones in NSW - or in the midst of it and trying to locate where and how many fires are around them, this amalgamated map uses two sets of data from NSW RFS and almost live from Digital Earth - https://bit.ly/2sBKD9z - (link goes to an ArcGis map), has proven pretty accurate for a few people so far on the south coast for fires and road closures
    That's a really good resource 338.


    Makes me wonder how much double handling there is in each state providing their own data, stopping at the border (like the fires know the difference!)

    vic.jpg nsw.jpg qld.jpg sa.jpg
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  42. #42
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    ...and...

    wa.jpg tas.jpg nt.jpg

    Seems to me that a national emergency site would make more sense but that would require our states to work together like we were one country.
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  43. #43
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    For a national overview with zoom to local level and some interesting layers to play with: https://myfirewatch.landgate.wa.gov.au/


    Java "Maps!" phile
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    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  44. #44
    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Hi all

    Many of those sites are using the same underlying data from orginal sources. Example the site Andy posted https://myfirewatch.landgate.wa.gov.au is using Geoscience Aust data (https://hotspots.dea.ga.gov.au/) from satellite imagery combined with a base map from Google Maps where as https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/v...3499818a2d60df uses the hotspots data with RFS data with base map from ESRI which got it from Geoscience Aust originally under license. The RFS Fires Near Me is from their own data which has details and situation data on each fire.

    Each site though uses the underlying data feed and may have a different "look and feel" with different icons for the data points so it might appear as if there are dozens of independent sites and unique data. In reality there are just a few original data sources and the many sites are what are called "mashups".

    For the computer nerds the hotspots data is available as json data and the RFS data is an XML feed. So you can even write your own site to use that data with Open Street Maps as a base layer.

    Mike

  45. #45
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    That's a good site Javaphile, I like the overlays too. Well done WA!

    Sure, I get that the data is out there Speleomike, my thoughts were more selfish considering that the first message we received from the alerts app was "you're stuffed" and the fire had already been burning for a few hours at that time. To get wind speed and direction I needed to find separate resources on multiple websites then have multiple tabs open to toggle and refresh. The phone app continued to tell us 3 or 4 times a day for the following week that the fire was out, that becomes a "boy who cried wolf" pretty fast for many people.

    "Fire ready" was the original warning Victorian app, it was excellent and accurate. I could watch a fire truck drive past the Snobbery and know where it was going, the app was very live. It was replaced by "Vic Emergency" which is okay but clumsy to navigate and nowhere near as good.

    Seems to me that if all the states pooled their current IT spend and resources we could have a National system that worked far better than any single component.

    On a brighter note, it was nice to wake to the sound of rain on the roof this morning and see south Australia and western Victoria getting a shower, it's not much but hopefully it continues moving east to the High Country and Gippsland and into Southern NSW to where it's needed.
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  46. #46
    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Hi all

    Absolutely agree Andy. Pooling resources and bringing the data together so its more easily accessible and preferably as up-to-date as possible would be wonderful. I have actually removed the Fires Near Me app from my Android as it wasn't up to date enough or accurate for my use when travelling.

    As you prob know from developing Coffee Snobs apps, everyone wants something different and if all the services got together and pooled their resources scope creep would kick in and after two years and a budget overrun we would all have an app that suited no one and cost tax payers over a million $ :-)

    However at least some of the data is available and open source developers and companies and govt depts can step in and create apps using the data.

    Mike
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    Unfortunately we are being misled about the role of Co2 in our climate change. I suggest you spend sometime watching these few interviews to see the real story.

    https://sacredgeometryinternational....s-perspective/

    Cheers Mark

  48. #48
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speleomike View Post
    everyone wants something different and if all the services got together and pooled their resources scope creep would kick in and after two years and a budget overrun we would all have an app that suited no one and cost tax payers over a million $
    Good point, a shag in brewery and a booze-up in a brothel is likely result although it wouldn't surprise me if we (country of many states) are already spending many millions on these separate govt resources.

    Uber did a good job of their app, Landgate.gov.wa has some good overlay options like lightning strikes, add some others like wind direction and strength and maybe GPS on emergency vehicles and you can turn-on/off what you need.

    I'm not sure the police would like Joe public to know where they are but I can't see the others having a problem.
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    The most important thing to come from all this is non of the national governments in power, liberal and labor, have bothered to put in place a national disaster plan, bit late for scomo to call in the armed forces, they should have been there very much earlier in the piece, perhaps now we will get a national disaster plan, who knows maybe a tsunami is next.

  50. #50
    Senior Member Beanz.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    .......... It was replaced by "Vic Emergency" which is okay but clumsy to navigate and nowhere near as good.........
    Andy I totally agree the current system leaves a lot to be desired, often difficult to navigate to a specific incident in your watch zone and sometimes not enough useful information.

    I do not like being totally reliant on a web based information system when in a fire zone. Power, internet and phone connections can all go down very early which is then a recipe for disaster.

    I suggest people in fire zones also use the Scanner Radio App or Broadcastify App (Note: both still web / phone based) to monitor the call outs and responses back from attending appliances. Set Favorites to monitor the Region applicable to your location eg Region 13 for Melb Eastern Metro

    When in attendance at an incident they do shift frequency that you will be unable to follow but at least you will have live feed giving you information to make decisions when the situation is developing.

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...m.scannerradio

    https://apps.apple.com/au/app/scanne...re/id498405045

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...e.broadcastify

    https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/ctid/5586 (Note: Australia > Victoria > Eastern Metro (Division) [Melbourne])

    I note specific channels have been set up and listed as "Disaster Event" as opposed to "Public Safety" eg RFS Dunns Road Bushfire Southern Highlands which is carrying lots of active communication back and forth trucks to base etc (Australia > New South Wales > Murrumbidgee (MG) (Division))

    https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/ctid/4343

    I hope the links and information above are useful

    Stay safe everyone, unfortunately there is a long way to go yet
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