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Thread: Vacuum container and pump

  1. #1
    Jon
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    Vacuum container and pump

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    These seem to all be around $30. Anyone know of the best/cheapest one?

    Thanks

    Jon.

  2. #2
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Jon,

    I assume you are looking at this for the storage of beans?

    The instructor at the commercial espresso course I attended said something like- If you see someone using vacuum packed beans - turn and run the other way - fast!! ;)

    Beans after roasting out gas - that is give off carbon dioxide. They do that until the amount of carbon dioxide in the bean is at a "correct level". This carbon dioxide is, in part responsibe for the crema when you extract.

    The only way beans will remain in the vacuum pack (solid brick) is they must be STALE before being packed. :(

    Also applying a vacuum will remove more carbon dioxide (which you dont want to do.)

    His advice...

    Store the roasted beans in a cool, dry, dark place in a container with a one way valve - so the carbon dioxide can get out but air cant get in.

    Store grean beans in a cool, dry place in a natural fibre (say cotton) bag.

    Dont of course store ground coffee at all!!!

    Remember the rule of 3s

    Green beans keep 3 years
    Roast beans 3 weeks
    Ground beans 3 minutes!!

    I wouldnt use vacuum storage at all!! ::)

  3. #3
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    I store mine in the one way valved bags.
    On the odd occasion when its been bagged for me in a valveless bag, I tranfer them into a valved one as soon as I get home.

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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Thermos do a twin set(one a litre the other about 1.5) for 24.50 at most roasters.
    I take beans on the road after they have degassed in mine, it has a pump built in the lid so there is no extra gear to carry.

  5. #5
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    We stock the VacuVin type....I wonder if its a VacuCoffee hehe?

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump


    Store grean beans in a cool, dry place in a natural fibre (say cotton) bag.
    gee wiz... Im glad your trainer decribed CofffSnobs green bean, natural cotton fibre packaging!

    Did he also mention it should have CS logo on the front?

    ;)


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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Freeman link=1161840553/0#5 date=1161858544
    gee wiz... Im glad your trainer decribed CofffSnobs green bean, natural cotton fibre packaging!

    Did he also mention it should have CS logo on the front?

    ;)
    No he didnt Andy.... but he knows all about us (I think he is actually a member)....


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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Hi guys, as a related question, where can i get that one way valve bag for roasted beans? I mean small quantity order.
    cause most of suppliers offering as minimum like 100s.
    Any ideas??

  9. #9
    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Sponsor coffeeparts sells them in any quantity you want.
    I would also recommend their cleaning supplies, barista kits and spare parts.
    Ohhh.. its a fun site to look through!

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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Quote Originally Posted by MAXIE link=1161840553/0#7 date=1161867938
    Hi guys, as a related question, where can i get that one way valve bag for roasted beans? I mean small quantity order.
    Try:

    http://www.coffeeparts.com/coffeebags/bags.html#pouch

  11. #11
    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    snap!
    Ring again tomorrow and well play again!

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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Thanks for your help, fatboy and JavaB!


  13. #13
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Quote Originally Posted by fatboy link=1161840553/0#10 date=1161868232
    snap!
    Ring again tomorrow and well play again!
    Great minds think alike---- also fools seldom differ :D ;D

    (no prizes for second place :()

  14. #14
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Quote Originally Posted by fatboy link=1161840553/0#8 date=1161868102
    Sponsor coffeeparts sells them in any quantity you want.
    I would also recommend their cleaning supplies, barista kits and spare parts.
    Ohhh.. its a fun site to look through!
    The only problem is the postage cost when buying small quantities of bags.
    Hence your hint, no doubt, at other supplies.

    Im still kicking myself because I dont live too far from coffeeparts and made a trip to buy my jugs and some cleaning brushes then completely forgot about the bags until I got home. *[smiley=embarassed.gif]

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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    I was going to post this earlier - Ill make a new post/poll for it though. I am going to order a batch of the bags from Coffeeparts - any west aussies who want in are free to link in with the order so we only pay the one postage cost. Look in this section for the poll!

  16. #16
    Jon
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1161840553/0#1 date=1161843130
    Jon,

    I assume you are looking at this for the storage of beans?

    The instructor at the commercial espresso course I attended said something like- If you see someone using vacuum packed beans - turn and run the other way - fast!! ;)

    Beans after roasting out gas - that is give off carbon dioxide. They do that until the amount of carbon dioxide in the bean is at a "correct level". This carbon dioxide is, in part responsibe for the crema when you extract.

    The only way beans will remain in the vacuum pack (solid brick) is they must be STALE before being packed. :(

    Also applying a vacuum will remove more carbon dioxide (which you dont want to do.)

    His advice...

    Store the roasted beans in a cool, dry, dark place in a container with a one way valve - so the carbon dioxide can get out but air cant get in.

    Store grean beans in a cool, dry place in a natural fibre (say cotton) bag.

    Dont of course store ground coffee at all!!!

    Remember the rule of 3s

    Green beans keep 3 years
    Roast beans 3 weeks
    Ground beans 3 minutes!!

    I wouldnt use vacuum storage at all!! ::)

    Thanks JavaB (and everyone else) for your reply

    Just to clear up any confusion, Im talking about storing roasted beans, not green beans.

    This is the type of vacuum container Im referring to (yes, the Vacuvin type - I dont mean a vacuum brick like a lot of ground coffee comes in), and would like to know if they are the go, and where to get the cheapest:
    http://www.vacuvin.nl/dining_coffeesaver.html
    http://www.paulbassett.com/estore.php?prod_view=14

    And by one way valve bags, do you mean these?:
    http://www.coffeeparts.com/coffeebags/bags.html (eg. item B250)

    So what is the consensus about the best way to store roasted beans?

    Cheers

    Jon.



  17. #17
    Senior Member Lovey's Avatar
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Gday Jon,
    most people here agree that the best way to store roasted beans is in a cool, dark place in an airtight container. NB a cool dark place does not include the fridge or freezer ;)
    The bags you put the link to are the ones that JavaB was referring to.
    These are used to put freshly roasted beans into, to allow the CO2 to escape after roasting.
    You can also store freshly roasted beans in an airtight container, but you have to remember to open the container and let the CO2 out occassionaly.
    Its a bit like manual v automatic - airtight container v one way valve bags.
    Hope this helps.

  18. #18
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon link=1161840553/15#15 date=1161904593
    Just to clear up any confusion, Im talking about storing roasted beans, not green beans.

    This is the type of vacuum container Im referring to (yes, the Vacuvin type - I dont mean a vacuum brick like a lot of ground coffee comes in), and would like to know if they are the go, and where to get the cheapest:
    http://www.vacuvin.nl/dining_coffeesaver.html
    http://www.paulbassett.com/estore.php?prod_view=14
    Jon.
    Jon,

    I was talking mainly about roasted whole beans (you also get them in vacuum "bricks")... the vacuum stored ground beans are far, far worse because of the greater surface area!

    Just a bit more info from some reading into storing roasted beans....

    After roasting the cells within the bean have carbon dioxide (CO2) under pressure... this slowly leaks out until it is roughly the same pressure as the external air (takes about 3 days after roasting)

    This CO2 remaining in the bean, coffee oils and water (under pressure) are the components which produce the crema

    From the moment roasting finishes the volatile coffee oils start to be oxidised and turn rancid (the off taste).. This of course is caused by the oxygen in the air..... they also evaporate and taste is lost.. Normally about 3 weeks and the oxidation and loss of volatile oils the coffee is stale!

    So what to do to limit the "degredation"

    Bag with one way.....
    if coffee is placed in one after roasting... the CO2 given off will displace the air in the bag... when the CO2 in the beans is the same as atmospheric pressure no more CO2 will be given off.... volatile oils will still be given off (function of temperature).
    after removing beans (for use) from such a bag... squeeze out as much air as you can and reseal... oxygen will have entered the bag... and you will get faster degredation.

    Vacuum container....
    the vacuum will remove all oxygen even if beans havent been freshly roasted... it will also reduce the pressure around the beans so more C02 will be sucked out of the beans... less crema.... volatile oils boil (evaporate) at a rate determined by temperature and pressure... you have lowered the pressure so more rapid evaporation of these as well.... but as there is no oxygen there is no chance of a rancid taste... when beans are removed you can re-apply the vacuum and remove the oxygen....

    So you can use a one way bag and preserve the flavour and crema for longer - with greater risk of a rancid taste.... this is what specialty coffee roasters (e.g. 5 senses coffee) use... their product typically has a 3-4 week expiry from time of roasting/packing. Thes bags are often plump.... beans were put in fresh and the bag is now full of CO2

    or

    use a vacuum system and have flat tasting beans, with low crema and no rancid taste which will last a lot longer.... thats why large commercial coffee producers use vacuum sealed bags to sell at the supermarket... with expiry dates typically 1 year from packing- and they are already stale - but not rancid- when packed (or the bag would just expand as the CO2 is given off)!

    The choice is yours - but as a coffee snob I know what Id do!!!

  19. #19
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    As I understand you.
    I should use a bag with a one way valve that lets air out but not in.

    I have a vacuum sealer and some small plastic jars with a vacuum seal top. It lets you pull a vacuum out through a one way valve.
    So if I use that jar and do not pull a vacuum, just place the top on, isnt that the same as a one way bag? It should let the co2 out but not let air in.
    You also say
    "after removing beans (for use) from such a bag... squeeze out as much air as you can and reseal"
    Couldnt I just put the top back on and vacuum out a small amount of air without drawing a full vacuum? Wouldnt that be the same as squeezing out the air?

    thanks

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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Quote Originally Posted by justintime link=1161840553/15#18 date=1165987647
    As I understand you.
    I should use a bag with a one way valve that lets air out but not in.

    I have a vacuum sealer and some small plastic jars with a vacuum seal top. It lets you pull a vacuum out through a one way valve.
    So if I use that jar and do not pull a vacuum, just place the top on, isnt that the same as a one way bag? It should let the co2 out but not let air in.
    Yep, that will work fine. Just keep the jar away from light - say in the back of a cupboard.

    "after removing beans (for use) from such a bag... squeeze out as much air as you can and reseal"
    Couldnt I just put the top back on and vacuum out a small amount of air without drawing a full vacuum? Wouldnt that be the same as squeezing out the air?
    Not quite the same as squeezing the air out doesnt reduce the pressure (hence suck out the oils and the carbon dioxide) where even a slight vacuum will a little.

    It would probably be OK, best you try it out and see how it goes.

  21. #21
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Quote Originally Posted by justintime link=1161840553/15#18 date=1165987647
    As I understand you.
    I should use a bag with a one way valve that lets air out but not in.

    I have a vacuum sealer and some small plastic jars with a vacuum seal top. It lets you pull a vacuum out through a one way valve.
    So if I use that jar and do not pull a vacuum, just place the top on, isnt that the same as a one way bag? It should let the co2 out but not let air in.
    You also say *
    "after removing beans (for use) from such a bag... squeeze out as much air as you can and reseal"
    Couldnt I just put the top back on and vacuum out a small amount of air without drawing a full vacuum? Wouldnt that be the same as squeezing out the air?

    thanks
    I have one of these Vacuum Coffee Saver containers too. It could explain why after 3 weeks I have less crema but the coffee doesnt taste rancid.

    I will continue to use the container but instead of drawing all the air out of it by pumping the vacuum pump multiple times, Ill try doing a half pump and see if my crema stays around longer.

    Lawrance

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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Dont all coffee bean bags come in one way bags that allow CO2 to exit? Otherwise, unless the coffee beans are completely stale to begin, would cause the packaging to expand as the c02 is emitted?

    Vacuum sealing will speed up the co2 releasing process causing the beans to stale prematurely, and should be avoided.

    If I got that right, Im thinking of using the bags the coffee beans come in, but I dont see why this would tend to cause the beans to go rancid?


    Also, before roasting, green beans can last up to a year. After roasting, it will taste notably worse after 3 weeks. After preparing the coffee grounds, it starts to degrade after just a few minutes. Is this correct?

  23. #23
    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Nope.
    Not ALL coffee beans come in one-way bags.
    I havent looked for a long time, but Im sure there are brands in the supermarket that are just sealed in bags without a valve. And yes, they are stale when they go in, otherwise the bag would pop.
    Even the ones in the supermarket with a one-way valve are stale.

    Using the bags the beans come in is fine, as long as you clean them. Coffee leaves behind oils and that is what can go rancid. There have been a few discussions on the site regarding the re-use of bags for storage.

    There is an often quoted rule of 3s for coffee.
    Green beans are best used within 3 years.
    Roasted beans best within 3 weeks (there are exceptions)
    Ground coffee best used within 3 minutes.

  24. #24
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Interested in the science of roasted bean storage.
    Does anyone have graphs showing the amount of off-gassing with respect to time?

    i.e., the older the raosted bean the less the amount of off-gassing?

    Thanks,
    Mick

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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Quote Originally Posted by 332425243824263324242F243824410 link=1161840553/23#23 date=1272965435
    Interested in the science of roasted bean storage.
    Does anyone have graphs showing the amount of off-gassing with respect to time?

    i.e., the older the raosted bean the less the amount of off-gassing?

    Thanks,
    Mick
    Depends on the bean, roast depth, humidity and other variables, one blend I make blows up a 1 kg bag till near popping within a day, then with some SOs that I have at the moment they wont expel too much at all. So as AM says, once again 2 + 2 = 5 ;)

  26. #26
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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Try this thread and attached poll http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1234837789

    Also do a search to "optimum rest times" you will find that all beans vary

    happy playing

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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    I dont think thats what he asked for BF ;) i think hes interested in the actual gas and how much of it is expelled.


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    Re: Vacuum container and pump

    Quote Originally Posted by 786F6E6F736F6D786F6F646F736F0A0 link=1161840553/23#23 date=1272965435
    Interested in the science of roasted bean storage.
    It is the best thread here with the most input from the most users that I am aware of (over 150 responded to the poll), no not scientific but there is enough discussion to say the Vacuum storage is wrong if thats what the OP is looking at based on this ancient thread being brought back from the dead ;)



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