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Thread: Resting

  1. #1
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    Resting

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Sorry if this subject has already been covered in the past, but a search for resting" turns up too many results to find anything of use.

    I was finding my home roasted beans to be very finicky when trying to get the grind right, and I would have to grind significantly finer, 3 or more clicks past what would choke my machine with commercial coffees (tried some blends from Veneziano and some Genovese from a cafe down the road, all these gave a really good even pour)

    I was thinking that this was just because of the methods of roasting etc... and that home roasted beans just need a finer grind, but after pulling a few shots with some Panama GDVB that had been resting for 10 days (usually I would rest 48-96hrs) with the same grind as the commercial beans and getting GREAT results (really smooth with sweet fruity flavours, with a much thicker texture than I usually get) but thought it could use a bit more body or earthy flavours (I guess this is the same with most SOs as this is what blends are for).

    So, my question is, is this kind of behavior from home roasted beans normal? Is 10 days an OK time to rest, from what I have read they are stale in some peoples opinion. :S

    The roast had a total time of 22 minuites, FC at 14min and pulled just before the SC started rolling, about a minute after the fist signs of SC. was 220g of greens to begin with.

    Could the fact the roast time was significantly longer than a popper roast contribute to the longer resting needed to obtain good results, or have I done something wrong?
    It cant be that wrong if I did as I am very happy with the results.

    Thanks for any input on this topic.
    John.

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    Re: Resting

    Itsme5k

    being a newish roaster I was going to ask a similar question.

    Compared to commercially roasted beans, I too, noticed a requirement for a finer grind. [Peru Villa Estate, Bali Supreme mountain & ITM all taken to first signs of 2nd crack.]

    I was wondering if this was due to the fact that my single origin roasts were done lighter than the commercial blends, or whether it was a SO vs Blend issue.
    Or perhaps a combination of both.

    The results were great though

    I notice after resting [generally 5-8 days] that the beans had somewhat settled down [less gas] so the pours tightened up a little.

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    Re: Resting

    Hi guys,

    Im pretty sure its just a matter of time expired since roasting. Some suppliers may be able to get beans to you within a day or two of roasting but in the main, Im pretty sure that most "freshly" roasted beans will be 4-5 days old or older by the time you receive them. Given that most of we home-roasters probably start attacking our freshly roasted beans within a couple of days post roast, that would be a reasonable enough explanation.

    Of course, there are other factors at play too (arent there always)..... Degree of roast, profile of roast, method of roast, age of green beans, etc. Plenty of variables to play with here and all will have some influence on how the beans will behave come brew time.

    Cheers,
    Mal.

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    Re: Resting

    I know the roasting dates of the beans I get from my commercial roaster.
    I usually dont "attack" my home roasts sooner than 4 days if I can help it.
    But if I can I rest for 7 days, the same as the blend I get from my roaster.

    I still notice though that my roasts need to be ground finer.
    I have a theory that its because I see more remaining chaff in my roasts than in a commercial one.
    I think the chaff keeps the grounds apart more (lets more water through).

  5. #5
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    Re: Resting

    Hi John,

    I think that you have hit the nail on the head in your original posts. As you know, our commercial roasts tend to have a relatively long shelf life and need to be rested for longer than, for example, the single origins that we offer. This is certainly due to the difference in roasting in the "popcorn popper" sample roaster and the 60kg drum, with the drum roasts taking more time than the air roasts.

    How long you should let your coffee rest is a tradeoff between heaps of aromatics and acidity with rapidly fading crema and thin bodyand mouthfeel vs fewer aromatics, less acidity, but more crema and a thicker mouthfeel. The Panama GDV isnt all that high in body and it is a washed coffee, so you shouldnt expect monster crema. Resting for a slightly longer period than, say, a dry processed brazil probably is going to help. Im not sure, but if the gas that escapes from roasted coffee is actually CO2, as people often say it is, outgassing might lower the amount of carbonic acid in solution in espresso, which might lower the perceived acidity and make the coffee taste "smoother." Regardless, anecdotally I would definitely agree with your observations.

    I took some of the Panama GDV that we roasted home over the weekend and also thought that it made for an unusually sweet espresso, but without a huge amount of body.

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    Re: Resting

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneziano Caffe link=1187755644/0#4 date=1187852154
    I think that you have hit the nail on the head in your original posts. As you know, our commercial roasts tend to have a relatively long shelf life and need to be rested for longer than, for example, the single origins that we offer. This is certainly due to the difference in roasting in the "popcorn popper" sample roaster and the 60kg drum, with the drum roasts taking more time than the air roasts.
    Luca,
    No I did not know this for certain, only from what I had tried at home, thanks for clearing that up.

    As for the large roasts in the drum roaster taking longer than an air roaster, what is an average roast time in the drum roaster?
    From reading through the threads it looks like poppers take around 8-12 min for a roast. I have a makeshift air roaster that uses a 1600w heat gun and some kitchenware which I think would perform similarly to a BM/HG setup, possibly a little better insulated and an average roast time of 20-25min to the first signs of SC for a 250gm roast. So from what your saying, this additional time roasting, (or is it the additional time between FC and SC?) would equate to a longer time needed to rest to get the same pour/flavour characteristics from the same grind?

    I will have a go with a smaller batch (therefore a quicker roast) and see what I think, and if I can notice any difference in the final product :)
    I have been happy with my results so far but am still fairly new to roasting so have alot to learn :)

    Thanks again for everyones help on this.
    John.

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    Re: Resting

    Dear Coffee Comrades,

    Apologies to roasting site sponsors.

    I must be the odd man out.
    Theres a tonne of opinion and theory on resting beans.
    Theres no empirical chemistry (that Ive seen).

    I believe off-gassing time (if desired) is an art.
    An art that becomes a battle of the taste buds.

    A benefit that is greater than the quality of the bean, is the freshness of the roast. *
    If I had to choose EITHER roast freshness OR bean quality I would take roast freshness. I have only been roasting for eight years and tried plenty of expensive beans (and a pleasure to cup) but the freshness of the roast wins hands down. Some may disagree - I have no problems with that.

    How fresh does my roast have to be? I have ground beans before they have time to get to room temperature after a roast.

    The tastes experienced with a no rest roast are different to the tastes experienced with a one day rest, two day rest, and even a three day rest of the same bean from the same roasted batch. The tastes dont change too much for after three days (for me) but why wait for days before cupping and not experience the great tastes and enjoy all the benefits of home roasting.

    What about when you taste bread from a bakery straight from the oven - beautiful. The next day its nice for making a ham or jam sandwich. By day three its out with the toaster.

    All different taste experiences - same bread.

    I roast in 200g batches. I vacuum seal my beans within ten minutes of roasting.

    I can tell by the depth of the seal under vacuum how much off-gas has been created whilst sitting. The amount of off-gas produced after the second day is infinitesimal. *

    My coffee mug and I sit aghast when we hear of beans being rested for 10 days or more. *:o

    My techniques wont be everyone’s cup of coffee but in my honest opinion the resting argument is more likely to come from a commercial roaster to reassure you that what you buy from them is so fresh you will need to let it rest a few more days before cupping.

    Yes, you can still enjoy a great cup from beans up to 28 days of age but there are taste qualities experienced with freshly roasted beans that are a great reward for discerning coffee lovers.

    Mick *:o

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    Re: Resting

    thanks for your comments Mick, I reckon yes and no!

    That is, there are some beans that taste great close to roast but taste even better with a few more days rest.

    There are some I wont touch until at least day 5 post roast.

    Others go downhill quite quickly which means you want to drink them immediately.

    For me it is a matter of getting to know the bean and what tastes best for me.

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    Re: Resting

    Yes and no from me to Mick.

    I have no problem trying freshly roasted beans, Ill give it a go next roast.
    But Im aghast that there are people here who have never tried beans 7 days post roast.

    Theres a blend I buy from a respected professional roaster that I wont touch until day 7.

    Im just getting some nicer flavours now out of last Sundays home roast of 25% Mountain Top 25% Ethiopian Limu 50% PNG Kimel.
    I was worried it wasnt going to get any better as its been on the "thin" side since day 4 when I started tasting it.
    Theres more body to it now and extra smoothness.

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    Re: Resting

    I tried my Ethiopian Harar after 2 days, and it was good, I am now into it 7 days later and it still tastes just as good, but the flavour has changed to a more smoother taste.

    I rest my Yemen 7 days before I have it, only because last time I tried it it was 4 days old and I loved the caramel taste, but 7-10 days and it is almost a toffee butter taste and thats where I like my flavour!

    BTW The Harar has the most awesome Blueberry smell anywhere from 2-4 days later.

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    Re: Resting

    Ill have to roast some Harrar next after that description.

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Resting

    Quote Originally Posted by redeyegreeneye link=1187755644/0#6 date=1188010992
    I roast in 200g batches. I vacuum seal my beans within ten minutes of roasting.
    If youve never done it you might want to try doing a side-by-side comparison of beans that have been vacuum sealed and beans that have been sealed in a bag that has had all the air pressed out but not vacuumed. My experiments (http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1164539863/5#5) showed that the vacuumed beans were clearly flatter tasting when compared to identical beans (taken from the same roast) that had not been vacuumed.


    Java "Not a fan of vacuumed beans" phile

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    Re: Resting

    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile link=1187755644/0#11 date=1188027873
    If youve never done it you might want to try doing a side-by-side comparison of beans that have been vacuum sealed and beans that have been sealed in a bag that has had all the air pressed out but not vacuumed. My experiments (http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1164539863/5#5) showed that the vacuumed beans were clearly flatter tasting when compared to identical beans (taken from the same roast) that had not been vacuumed.


    Java "Not a fan of vacuumed beans" phile
    Could this be because the negative pressure of the vacuum inside the bag "sucks out" gas from the beans inside the bag, causing them to degas quicker?

    Might come in useful working with beans that like long resting times when I get impatient :P

    John

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    Re: Resting

    Hi Geoff,

    Did you keep a note of which beans had a great taste fresh and which beans had a great taste after resting?

    I would like to see if I can try to duplicate your results.

    For me its not just knowing the bean because a bean from the same plantation 12 months later can give a very different taste but at least if you have a few kilos from a current batch you can fine tune your roast and resting.

    Monsoon Malabar is one that comes to mind but I know seasonal conditions will affect the results of each crop.

    Let me know your beans so I can try too :)

    Thanks,
    Mick

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    Re: Resting

    Hi Thundergod,

    I love beans 7 days post roast.
    I am happy with well roasted beans up to a month old - but any older the beans give a bit of a flat beer taste.

    The fresh roast has a special character. Sometimes the same bean the next day tastes very different.

    Of course there are a million parameters that go into a good cup, bean type, roast depth, age, grind, machine, etc., which is why baristering (is that a word ::)) is more an art than a science.

    Cheers,
    Mick

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    Re: Resting

    Hi Macca,

    Thanks for the tips on Harar and Yemen.
    I only have a little Yirgerchefe (sp?) in stock at the moment but will try to see if I can duplicate your efforts.

    How deep did you roast? 8-)
    What was your total roast time (before cooling)?

    Thanks,
    Mick

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    Re: Resting

    Hi Javaphile,

    You have given me a test I can conduct as I had been using valved bags for a long time.

    I will compare the beans at different days during the next week. I have some Columbian Supremo Ill use for this test.

    This will mean I have to drink two cups at once to compare ... OK, Ill do it and let you know next week.

    :) Mick

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    Re: Resting

    Quote Originally Posted by itsme5k link=1187755644/0#12 date=1188030386
    Could this be because the negative pressure of the vacuum inside the bag "sucks out" gas from the beans inside the bag, causing them to degas quicker?

    Might come in useful working with beans that like long resting times when I get impatient :P

    John
    Thats pretty much been my working hypothesis, and that is the problem. The gases and oils are being forcefully drawn out of the beans in a matter of seconds. When the beans are allowed to rest normally these gases and oils take hours/days to work their way to the surface interacting with each other the whole time.

    These chemical reactions/interactions are reflected in the changing flavor of the beans. When the beans are vacuumed a sizable percentage of the gases are removed from the equation. This changes the chemical reactions with-in the beans as they rest and to my tastebuds results in a dramatic and very noticeable blunting/flattening of their flavor profile.


    Java "No Sucky, just sippy!" phile

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    Re: Resting

    Quote Originally Posted by redeyegreeneye link=1187755644/15#16 date=1188032486
    Hi Javaphile,

    You have given me a test I can conduct as I had been using valved bags for a long time.

    I will compare the beans at different days during the next week. I have some Columbian Supremo Ill use for this test.

    This will mean I have to drink two cups at once to compare ... OK, Ill do it and let you know next week.

    :) Mick
    Sounds good to me! :)

    What do you use to vacuum seal the bags?


    Java "The Mad Experimenter" phile

  20. #20
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    Re: Resting

    My beans never last a month. ;D
    The most any have lasted would be almost 3 weeks.

    Ive actually been meaning to roast a bit extra lately so I can try some older beans, but it will have to wait again because I have a very full weekend.

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    Re: Resting

    Quote Originally Posted by redeyegreeneye link=1187755644/0#13 date=1188032105

    Did you keep a note of which beans had a great taste fresh and which beans had a great taste after resting?

    I would like to see if I can try to duplicate your results.

    For me its not just knowing the bean because a bean from the same plantation 12 months later can give a very different taste but at least if you have a few kilos from a current batch you can fine tune your roast and resting.
    Hi Mick,

    I keep notes on all my roasts, 2 that immediately come to mind regarding resting are the 50/50 blend of Sumatran Mendheling and Yirgacheffe, wait at least 7 days and Ethiopian Sidamo Gd1 around 6 days.

    The latter is interesting because I posted some months ago about how disappointed I was with it and Mal suggested waiting at least 5 days and I found he was spot on. I now wait 6 and find that the drinking 6-10 is great.

    Two that come to mind that were better drinking straight away, or after 1-2 days were (I dont have any more!) an Ethiopian Gimbi and Mountain Top Coffee Naturals.

    Good comment about the same bean different crop, I was relating my comment to the "crop" I am roasting. That is I buy through beanbay in 2.5kg lots and know that gives me about 8 roasts (not including blends) for that bean. By the second roast I know how much I like it and play around with the profile which agrees with your comment about fine tuning roasting and resting.

    Thanks to Andy and CS cant remember a bean I didnt like or couldnt use in some way.

    Look forward to your comments.

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    Re: Resting

    Hi Thundergod,

    For the vacuum pots I have use a hand operated pump that fits over the top of the valve and like a reverse pump it gets most of the air out. :D

    The vacuum seal bags I have are the typical one-way valve bag that I half fill with roasted bean and remaining air manually squeezed out. ;D

    I will run a comparison taste-test on:
    1. Vacuum Pot Sealed Beans.
    2. Vacuum Bag Sealed Bean.
    3. Vacuum Bag Sealed Beans Frozen.
    4. Unsealed Beans stored in the dark.
    5. Unsealed Beans stored in full light.

    My shots are normally 18 grams :o but for this taste test I will use 09 gram shots :-? so I can do four taste tests of five cups at a time.
    Test 01: A single fresh roast shot.
    Test 02: Day two x 5 cups concurrently.
    Test 03: Day four x 5 cups concurrently.
    Test 04: Day six x 5 cups concurrently.
    Test 05: Day eight x 5 cups concurrently.

    Please allow ten days for results to be compiled.

    :) Mick

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    Re: Resting

    Hi Geoff,

    Except for adding a little Robusta I have not ventured into blending to any great extent. I am having that much fun getting such a wide array of tastes from single origin at differnt depths of roast and enjoying in the week that follows.

    Using a different bean for each 200 gram roast thats enough for a dozen cups.

    Maybe I should venture into pre-roast blending :P

    Thanks for your tips on the Ethiopian beans. I will now add more parameters to my bean calculations and these will be latitude, altitude, rainfall and slope direction. Along with drying technique, roasting technique (speed of roast (time), depth of roast, electric or gas, ambient temperature and humidity at the time of roasting), cooling technique, resting times before cupping, storage techniques, grinding machine used, tamping pressure applied, espresso machine used. What have I missed? Im sure theres a big matrix of factors that influence the taste that got those Ethiopian goats frisky all those years ago.

    :) Mick


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    Re: Resting

    Quote Originally Posted by redeyegreeneye link=1187755644/15#21 date=1188126330
    For the vacuum pots I have use a hand operated pump that fits over the top of the valve and like a reverse pump it gets most of the air out. :D

    The vacuum seal bags I have are the typical one-way valve bag that I half fill with roasted bean and remaining air manually squeezed out. ;D
    Hhhmmm....The bag sealing method youre using is not a vacuum sealing process. The atmosphere in the bag after youve sealed it is still at normal atmospheric pressure. Squeezing the air out of the bag does not make a vacuum, it merely removes the air that is external to the mass of beans. The air pressure around the beans is still at full atmospheric pressure.

    From your description of how you seal the pots (What are they? Got a pic?) I cant tell how much of a vacuum is actually being created.

    The vacuum sealer I used was a Tilia FoodSaver using poly vacuum bags/pouches. While it certainly isnt the worlds most powerful vacuum pump it will pull the juices out of meats when theyre sealed. When the beans were vacuumed and sealed in the pouches they formed a solid block that took a lot of force to break. Because of the hard vacuum the beans are formed into a rock hard mass.

    How much of a vacuum are you pulling in your pots?


    Java "No vacuum between the ears allowed!" phile

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    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Re: Resting

    redeyegreeneye wrote .....
    " I will now add more parameters to my bean calculations and these will be latitude, altitude, rainfall and slope direction. Along with drying technique, roasting technique (speed of roast (time), depth of roast, electric or gas, ambient temperature and humidity at the time of roasting), cooling technique, resting times before cupping, storage techniques, grinding machine used, tamping pressure applied, espresso machine used. What have I missed? "

    The Ethiopian coffee growers religion :-)



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    Re: Resting

    Hi Speleologist Mike,

    A census in the early 90s showed over 60% of Ethiopians to be Christian Orthodox. Today the figure is closer to 70%.
    Source: Ethiopian friend - not an American website.

    One thing that could be added to that coffee check-list is the name of the provider of the phyto-sanitary certifcate in the country of origin which is what you need to get your beans through Australian Customs as Customs have a list of trusted phyto-sanitary certifcate providers and a list of untrusted providers.

    Trusted means quicker delivery. Untrusted means extra time taken for thorough testing including cutting green beans in half looking for greebies that might affect Aussie agriculture.

    :) Mick (underwater speleologist)









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    Re: Resting

    How much of a vacuum are you pulling in your pots?
    *
    Hi Javaphile,

    The one-way valves allow air to be pressed out without sucking any in. Helps at least to minimise oxidation of freshly roasted beans.

    The vacuum pots I use have a trade name Vacuvin and found on Google and eBay.

    Any pressure less than one atmosphere would be a degree of vacuum. I dont have a tool to measure the pascals of vacuum *:-[ but if you know where I can find one please let me know *:)

    Thanks,
    Mick
    *
    *


    *
    *
    *










  28. #28
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    Re: Resting

    Quote Originally Posted by redeyegreeneye link=1187755644/15#26 date=1188215507
    Hi Javaphile,

    The one-way valves allow air to be pressed out without sucking any in. Helps at least to minimise oxidation of freshly roasted beans.

    The vacuum pots I use have a trade name Vacuvin and found on Google and eBay.

    Any pressure less than one atmosphere would be a degree of vacuum. I dont have a tool to measure the pascals of vacuum :-[ but if you know where I can find one please let me know :)

    Thanks,
    Mick
    Indeed, anything less than one atmosphere would be a vacuum. However. The one-way valve bags as youre using them do not have a vacuum in them. They simply have the minimum amount of air in them. They are still at full atmospheric pressure. These bags as youre using them are the preferred method of storage. :) But the beans are not in a vacuum. :)

    There are plenty of vacuum measuring devices on the market but most likely none that will measure the vacuum in your containers out-of-the-box. You could check with the pump and container manufacturers to see what they say. A good way to check the degree of vacuum would be to see how much force is required to remove the lid of the container with-out relieving the vacuum first. From what I can see it appears the vacuvin containers most likely do not draw down to as strong a vacuum as the system I used developed. Im not a small person and with the system I have theres no way I can remove the covers from my containers once theyve been vacuumed out. Nope, aint gonna happen! :)

    It will be most interesting to hear your results. :)


    Java "Hurray for experiments!" phile

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    Re: Resting

    [QUOTE=Javaphile link=1187755644/15#27 date=1188224111]
    Quote Originally Posted by redeyegreeneye link=1187755644/15#26 date=1188215507
    Hi Javaphile,

    The one-way valves allow air to be pressed out without sucking any in. Helps at least to minimise oxidation of freshly roasted beans.
    Hi Javaphile,

    I am only using the one-way valve storage to compare the storage of freshly roasted beans to the vacuum pots that seem to be doing the trick for me *:-X

    I will record the results of my testing and will include every roasting factor I can to help in developing a repeatable process *;)

    The quest continues *:)

    Mick



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