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Thread: Diedrich, Giesen or Probat?

  1. #1
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    Diedrich, Giesen or Probat?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hello everyone ,

    I'm planning on starting a small business, where I can sell some roasted coffee and test the market here. I have no customer base, planning on selling for local shops and individuals for a start.

    I'm in between Probat, diedrich and giesen.

    The offers I got:

    Diedrich IR-1 = $12,000
    Diedrich IR-2.5= $18,000 or probably a bit more.

    Giesen W1 (1.5k)= $16,800
    Giesen W6 = $22,800

    Probatino= $14,400
    Probat 5k= $22,800 (Which is A lot for me now! but I think it will be a more reasonable choice than the IR-2.5 since the price gap is not that high)

    I was going for a 1K, but then I got worried that I will need more even for a mico business, and will cost me more in the future but I'm not sure.

    However, the price gap is huge between the 1k and the others, and the shipping to middle east would cost me a lot too.

    Please help me decide which volume to start with for a small business, and which brand.

    Thank you all !
    Last edited by Sarah26; 5th January 2015 at 04:39 AM.

  2. #2
    TOK
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    Welcome to CS.

    You said "middle east", in which case I dont know why you are not considering any of the Turkish brands, which will do the job admirably for a micro roastery EG the Toper Cafemino is in your size, works well, and is far far better priced.

    For the rest of it. My personal view is that atleast one of the three you mentioned is one of these "internet manufactured" icons, the kind where anonymous internet posters talk brands and models up and around and into the stratosphere and turn them into icons and recognized names, despite that no one can check their bonafides (those that talk up the brands). Its very expensive for what it is.

    The other two, while they are very long and well established, quality roaster brands, are now I think trading on their past (meaning, there are others that have caught up in the quality stakes and possibly even surpassed them and will be better priced).

    Honestly for such a small start up size, where you say you are testing the waters, I dont know why you would zero in on the most expensive of brands, and it should be possible to purchase a (for example) Cafemino for around half the price of anything you have been quoted, for a roaster that will still do the job very well for you.

    All that said, no one can answer what size of roaster to buy and what brand. You need to do the research that is applicable to your situation, and no one else can do it for you. That means you need to contact the manufacturers themselves and or their agents local to your area, and go see them and get referrals to their happy clients so you can ask them plenty of questions and see if they will suit you.

    Regardless, I woudnt worry about going to the european brands/better technology until you have finished testing the waters and know what your next step needs to be. Having expensive, latest technology roasting equipment becomes more important when you get up to the bigger sizes.

    Also consider that you will be able to buy a 5 kg Turkish roaster for less than the prices you are being quoted for 1 kg machines above.....Not that I am saying you should buy one straight up as I dont know anything about your situation other than you have mentioned in the above post. You need to do your homework, and really, do the major part of it off the key board by talking to manufacturers and their agents and actual users of their equipment.

    Hope that helps.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Hi Sarah,

    Even for a start up business anything less than a 5kg becomes relatively very expensive by the time you have completed the

    shipping and installation.

    Managing batch to batch consistency on small roasters is also a challenge for beginners (and some others that I know); if your business is moderately successful

    you will outgrow a bench top roaster's capacity very quickly.

    Don't forget that you will need to allocate time for marketing, packaging, sourcing your inputs, cupping and selecting green beans,

    networking, deliveries, office work and destoning. A small roaster will simply keep you tied to the machine for too many hours per week.

    Further to TOK's excellent comments above, make yourself familiar with how each type of roaster works; how does it heat the beans,

    is the drum perforated, is the burner train efficient, is the roaster insulated, is the drum carbon or stainless steel, what type of of airflow

    control does it have, are there any cast iron components, how easy is it to service, pull apart and clean and what is the build quality like?

    A lot of this can be gleaned from technical manuals and pdf's, if you can understand manufacturer's double speak but nothing beats

    going out and talking to other roasters and seeing how different machines perform. +1 to TOK's advice!

    There will be little to no difference in roast quality between all of the reputable brands, just different paths to get the end result and different purchase, set up

    and running costs.

    Why consider a Diedrich, given your location? They are made in the US and you're paying for a lot of non core expenses to get one into your roastery.

    TOK's suggestion of a 'Turkish' roaster is spot on, I would also add Has Garanti roasters to his suggestion.
    Last edited by chokkidog; 5th January 2015 at 09:31 AM.
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    TOK,

    Thank you so much for your reply. That was very helpful and you're absolutely right on that. The thing is, the more I read about a certain roaster the more I change my mind. Not many roasters in my country so going around and asking experts is kind of out of my list. they rely on big brands here like starbucks, nothing local.

    I have a friend who's a trainer at Toby's estate, Sydney. Also recommended Toper but some people started telling me that it's not the right choice to start with and so many other brands are getting way better so it wouldn't be the smartest choice. And after going to SCAA event and met the roasters (Giesen, Diedrich and Probat) and people started talking on how those 3 are the far best in the market. But after reading your post, I think I got myself sway and blindly believe some opinions. and you're right about the "internet manufactured icons", I had the same feeling but then I thought oh well what do I know.

    However, I'm gonna explore more and do my homework as you said. Thank you, that was helpful
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    chokkidog,

    May thanks for your post Just a while a go I was writing everything down and realised that a 1kg is definitely the wrong choice. and that that you've mentioned all the other stuff I will be doing, and I thought the price was insane. I'm kind of a newbie to roasting, thank you so much for you suggestion and I just wrote down the important things that need to be checked prior buying a roaster. Thanks again !
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  6. #6
    TOK
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    Hi and thanks for your thank you. It doesnt always happen in these pages !

    Some more thoughts as a result of your reply.

    Re: "Toper (or other Turkish brands)...some people started telling me that it's not the right choice to start with and so many other brands are getting way better so it wouldn't be the smartest choice".

    a) you're in the middle east, so it as local as you're gonna get ! And "way better" at what? Possibly roast monitor or control software. Supplying variable speed motors and fans? Way better at roasting? These guys have been around for a long time, and actually the result is up to the operator as long as the equipment is set up properly in the first place.
    b) very experienced, selling all over the world especially developing countries, where price may ceratinly be huge factor, but....they (turkish roasters) work and reasonably well ! Just not as well finished externally as others but are improving all the time. Weakest point, probably the gas train, up to you to make sure you ask for the best possible for your country.
    c) Contrary to what you appear to have been told, I would start with simpler, lower technology equyipment that is known to work, and up grade the technology later as you grow. Therefore, I say turkish (Toper, whoever) is the right choice for a total novice to start...start with simple "old school" technology that will get you going and over a period, have you understanding what you are doing and how you will want to upgrade later...

    d) Re "...people started talking on how those 3 are the far best in the market...."...beware "talking heads" syndrome. Its the same as reading reviews on the net. Everyone's an expert. Who are they? What are their bonafides? Do they have a reason for recomending certain equipment over others? Do they have any real experience or are they "experts of 1" (I've only ever used a brand X and its the best". What does that really mean).

    There are a miriad of emerging manufacturers (Asian countries), however your location suggests your closest manufacturers are in Turkey and these guys have a lot of experience. Suggest you call atleast Toper and Has Garante for a start and see where that leads you.

    Weigh up your budgetary options. EG. If a 1 kg turkish roaster costs say at a (educated) guess...$4000.00 US, and a 5 kg costs say.....$10,000.00 US (ex factory), and you would have paid say...$14000.00 for a 1 kg in one of the brands you originally mentioned (assuming that is also ex factory ie before all the on costs of fitment and set up), what does that lead you to consider, given that if you buy a 1 kg straight up and you are successful, you will then want to upgrade to a larger size.....?


    Hope that helps.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Good luck with your research! Sounds like you could be in a market that's ripe for picking.

    When reading bull and dust on the interweb always check the date of publication. With the world wide growth

    in roasting, across all sizes of production, reading comments that are less than 1-2 years old may not contain

    up to date and/or relevant facts.

    Have a read through this thread, especially the last couple of pages...........http://coffeesnobs.com.au/roasters/2...on-thread.html

    Some of the most successful coffees in Australian roasting comps have been roasted with Turkish style roasters.

    Keep us posted!
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    Thanks a lot for your helpful comments !

    I contacted Joper, Has Granari and Toper. I was surprised that toper 5kg costs $16,800. He offered "Profile system touch screen" free till the beginning of Feb.

    Honestly I was expecting a much cheaper price.

    Joper was very expensive almost same as probat. and haven't heard from has granati yet.

    I know some people say that the profiling option isn't that necessary for a start but I think it's essential if you want to keep a consistent profile. what do you think?

  9. #9
    TOK
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    Hello Sarah, you havent said if the (presume USD) $16,800.00 is ex factory Izmir, or includes delivery to you, or includes delivery and installation and set up, extras over and above the roaster itself (eg chimney sections), agents commissions etc etc etc etc., but there is no need to explain as that will be pertinent to your individual situation/location etc.

    When I bought my 5 kg Toper around 5 years ago it was roughly 10 thou US ex factory Izmir, and by the time it was all set up in my roasterie half way around the world it was significantly more than that... Had I optioned the extra "roast profiling" system at the time, it was going to cost an extra $5000.00 and I decided against it. It is (was) more than a roast monitoring system, as it included controls that allowed the roaster to "automatically" follow a previously saved roast profile. I tested the system at their factory beforehand and it worked very well.... ie you roast coffee however you want and save the profile, and you can call it up later and the machine will repeat the same profile quite accurately.

    But 5 years is a long enough time and I dont know how things have changed in the meantime.

    A roast profiling system will certainly help you to get repeatability BUT.....you need to have worked out your roast profiles first for the machine to be able to copy them.....that is, dont put the cart before the horse ! And.....most newcomers dont realise, there is no such thing as, and the machines dont come with, "default" roast profiles. You have to work them out, save them for future use, so the machine can copy them....note the machine will faithfully reproduce your saved profiles irrespective of whether they are any good or not, so you need to develop expertise beforehand.

    Additionally, in terms of equipment pricing, I would expect that over time the cost of manufacture of the equipment and consequent selling prices will have gone up, while the cost of the software will have come down. By how much and how that affects anyones buy price, I have no idea.

    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by TOK; 14th January 2015 at 08:21 AM.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Hi Sarah, TOK has pretty much covered everything.

    So that you can make an informed choice.........

    There are a few 'open source' and retail roast monitor software packages available which offer profile / template development,

    manual roast management tools, multiple input data logging and roast history.

    You will need a PC or Mac and a data logger with a thermocouple. Lots of roasters just buy or scrounge a second hand computer for the job.

    CoffeeSnobs, through Andy's generosity and hard work has it's own software package (best run on PC unless you're a computer whizz) but

    you will need the specific data logger that goes with it. CS software is here:

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/home-roast...-software.html

    Here is a google page with some links to 'Artisan', 'Cropster' and some others:

    https://www.google.com.au/search?cli...EaTu8wfdhoLQBA

    Getting around the traps, as far as smaller roasters go..... third party roast profiling/monitoring software is overwhelmingly more popular

    than PLC/touchscreen ( it's cheaper and more 'hands on' while still achieving consistent repeatable roasts )..... but that's up to you.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Hi Sarah

    You post mentioned "I'm kind of a newbie to roasting, ...."
    Given the amount of $ that you are considering it would be prudent to first start roasting with a small home roaster and supplying roasted beans to friends in order to develop your roast and cupping skills, to get feedback on your roasts and to develop your own blends and profiles. If you can get some time working in a roastery (even for free) that would open up a world of experience for you. It would show you all the other aspects of commercial roasting, many of which have been mentioned above.

    Mike
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    I can't thank you all enough for your cooperation

    I contacted Toper again, for some reason he gave me the price of TKMSX series instead of TKM-X series. After clarification, the price went down to $11,800 + $1000 shipment. it does not include installation. commercial link removed per site posting policy

    That seams more reasonable. The softwares and equipment you suggested seemed to be popular and a better choice than Toper's.

    To answer you Mike, I intend to hire a roast master for a while, I already met one and he's willing to work with me. That's why I'm struggling to buy the roaster.

    If you've visited the link I posted, do you think TKM-X 5 would be a good choice? I know I asked you a lot. I'm just not familiar with the technical spec. so I'm a bit afraid when it comes to buying my essential machine. That's why I need an expert's opinion.

    Thank you again for your help !
    Last edited by Javaphile; 16th January 2015 at 08:49 AM. Reason: Commercial link(s) removed

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah26 View Post
    I intend to hire a roast master for a while, I already met one and he's willing to work with me.
    Hi Sarah
    If you intend to work with a roaster master, at least for a while, might it be worth approaching him for his input on roaster choice?
    While similar in many ways, roasters are have quite different dynamics - if he has mastered his roasting on a certain style of machine, you may get better results straight up with some input from him, and learn more quickly yourself. With a new new style of machine for both of you, the journey may be a little more bumpy

    Cheers Matt
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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah26 View Post

    I contacted Toper again, for some reason he gave me the price of TKMSX series instead of TKM-X series. After clarification, the price went down to $11,800 + $1000 shipment. it does not include installation. commercial link removed per site posting policy
    If I was buying a roaster from Toper I would definitely ignore the TKM-X series and go for the TKM-SX instead. The SX has 4 motors, rather than just 3, which makes it possible to start roasting one batch while your last batch is cooling. This speeds things up quite a bit and with a 5kg roaster I can only assume that you will need to roast quite a few batches back-to-back to generate enough revenue to keep the operation going.
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    Hi Matt,

    Thanks for commenting. Well things are a bit unsettled with the roaster master as we're finding some issues with the visa and so on, so there might be a possibility that I work with a different person so I wouldn't want to rely on his opinion. however he said he likes working with probat wich is expensive to me, and didn't like working with Diedrich which I understand why. So I came here to get some help choosing a reliable roaster from the experts I did not want to regret choosing a roaster rather than another just because I bought what the salesman was selling. I wanted an expert's opinion to at least set me on a certain ground

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    That's exactly what I'd like to know before buying. I really don't know much when it comes to techs. which metal or what motors. Looking at the price and brand I thought that would be a safe choice. but thank you for clarifying some things for me!

  17. #17
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Hi Sarah,

    I didn't realise that Toper still made 3 motor machines, Vinitasse is correct..... purchase a 4 motor roaster.

    For me, personally, I would buy a Has Garanti; ( vested interest... I own one! ) ...2/3 the price of a Probat ....and for other reasons already mentioned in previous posts.

    Probats are also noisy; good roasters but not the only one in the market.

    The build quality of the HG is fantastic.

    Make sure you can get the best quality and most suitable electrics and gas train fittings available at your point of sale,

    particular to your country of operation's legal requirements.

    Here in Australia we enjoy the amazing expertise of Mark Beattie, of Coffee Roasters Australia,

    https://www.coffeeroasters.com.au , our local Aussie importer of HG's and CS site sponsor. Did you read the Has Garanti thread linked above?

    For the price difference between an HG and a Probat you could come to Australia for a week and do one of Mark's roasting courses??? :-D

    As an aside..... I have yet to meet a 'roastmaster'... everyone I know tell me they are still on 'the learning curve'. ;-)
    Last edited by chokkidog; 17th January 2015 at 01:58 PM.
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  18. #18
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    As an aside..... I have yet to meet a 'roastmaster'... everyone I know tell me they are still on 'the learning curve'. ;-)
    Agreed chokki,

    Anyone who thinks that they know everything about anything is closed to learning- in which case, they should have left long ago.
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  19. #19
    TOK
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    Good morning Sarah.

    Thank you for the kind words.

    If you are seriously looking at a Toper, go the TKMSX. My TKMSX-5 works extremely well or should I say....as it should. I mentioned both Toper and Has Garanti because these are the two turkish brands with most market penetration in our country. There are other brands, but we have little experience with them here.

    As you mentioned your "roastmaster" likes Probat, let me digress slightly. My view is that when someone eventually gets to larger sized roasters, that is when they start looking at what the more expensive brand roaster manufacturers can offer. At that point, you start asking what are the differences in the roaster technology that result in more expense, what does it do for my coffee, what does it do for the management of my roasterie, and what does it do for me. And that may be the point where you decide (as an individual that has a different set of expectations and wants and needs), to buy a more expensive plant than a cheaper and probably more conventional one....despite that they will all do the job (if you are looking at good established brands).

    My question to you would then be: If for example a good, small batch turkish brand machine of well established, old school design, that is known to work as intended, will start you off and work extrememly well for you at your stage of expertise (a small start up business) and help yo to learn the trade, then compare to the european brand, which is significantly more expensive. Does it offer any more technology or some difference in the way it roasts, in that small batch size (say 5 kg) than the turkish brand? Then only you can decide if you want to or can afford to pay the extra to buy the european machine. Note I am not in any way denigrating a great brand (and I used one for 25 years), just that you need to know what you might expect to get by spending the extra dollars...for your situation, at this time.

    Which is why I wrote above: "My TKMSX-5 works extremely well or should I say....as it should." As they all (the brands you mentioned) should.......

    Beware the term "roastmaster".
    Comments by Matt above are correct however someone with requisite experience will be able to work out a simple old school roaster fairly quickly.
    Comments by Chokkidog also correct.....successful roasters with a lot of experience usually dont self appint themselves with non provable and possibly even non existent (in an academic sense) titles, but we do see enough people with little experience advertising themselves as such....its all part of "the show".

    That aside and assuming his bona fides are good, the real problem is the cost to you of bringing him on board.

    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by TOK; 17th January 2015 at 08:13 AM.
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    I think I have a better picture now, I can start reading and learning about the roasters I'm after with at least better knowledge and sources to go back to thanks to the links you provided.

    Thank you all for your great effort, and a special thanks to TOK and chokkidog!
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    Hi Again,

    I've been contacting toper and HG lately, the price gap between them is huge! HG hsr5 was $7,500 and toper sx was $15,800. But the down side to buy a turkish brand is that dealing with them is terrible to be honest.

    As for HG, he just sent the price and that HSR is better in his opinion. I asked for a detailed pdf for the roaster and he doesn't respond unless I call each time and remind him. and I still didn't get the pdf nor freight rate..etc

    I figure it will be hectic dealing with them but if that's what suits my business then be it.

    Honestly I was leaning more towards toper, but the price difference is big! unless toper would offer something WAY better or else I think HG would do the job.

    However I still didn't get any spec. and I couldn't find it online.

    In your experience, would toper provide a MUCH better result than HG hsr?

  22. #22
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Hi Sarah, Nice to hear from you again and that things are progressing, albeit in its own way.

    To answer your question....No, the end result between the roasters will be very same, same.

    Having seen two recent model HGs, one 10 kilo (HSR10) and a 15 kg (HSR15) and I can vouch for their

    build quality, which is really excellent.

    I have tasted coffee, regularly, from the HSR10 and also from a Toper 15kg and the results are both

    excellent with the differences between the products being provided by the roaster (person) and their beans

    and not the roaster (machine).

    My own coffee, from a 2.5 year old HSR5, is very excellent ;-D of course and has won a couple of awards!!

    https://www.coffeeroasters.com.au/te...-installations (the red one, bottom right).

    In a previous post I mentioned about electrics and gas train components which will influence the quality of

    operation. I have no idea what will be fitted to any machine available to you, where you are.
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    chokkidog,

    Thank you for your reply

    It looks really good, if as you say the end result will be the very same, I'm sure I'll get the HG instead of toper since the price is very convenient.

    I'm really glad you guys suggested those two to me!

  24. #24
    TOK
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    Jut a quick word of caution, the pricing makes no sense either way for my liking.

    The Toper is too exi, but the HG is too cheap, needing further investigation on your part....I believe professional, detailed quotes as to the inclusions are in order.
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  25. #25
    TC
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    Agreed,

    I use and love a Has Garanti. To make a comparison between ours and the base product supplied out of Turkey would be akin to suggesting that two cars which look similar but have completely different drive trains and electricals are identical.

    Coffee Roasters Australia does fantastic work on Australian Has Garanti roasters. All of the gas train is locally fabricated and installed as are the overwhelming majority of the electrics.

    I cannot offer any advice whatsoever about the Turkish product other than to say it looks similar.
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  26. #26
    TOK
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    And adding to my own previous post. Beware the prices you have so far obtained. To me, it seems impossible for there to be a greater than 100% difference in price between two apparently directly competing models....something isnt right (and I would be more suspicious of the price that is too cheap, than the one that seems too exi). Make sure you are comparing apples with apples please before deciding which apple is best for you.
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  27. #27
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    +1 to #25 & #26 Absolutely, as I have already mentioned.... I have no idea what would be supplied to you in the way of gas train/electrics.

    Make sure the HG quote includes all specs and components, as supplied, as TOK & Chris mention and that what is supplied are of suitable quality.

    If the HG is incomplete you will have a bit more work and $$
    Last edited by chokkidog; 27th January 2015 at 10:57 AM.
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    To be honest I thought the pricing for both wasn't convincing, as you guys said one of them was too cheap and the other one was too exi.

    I asked for the price breakdown yesterday but as I said before, their customer service is pretty bad. HG haven't even sent me a detailed PDF about the roaster, he said an email with 4 bullets about it? I keep on calling him.

    What do you suggest I do after I get the price breakdown? how would I know if some parts were reasonably priced or not? I have no idea about that.

    if I copied them here, will you be able to tell? or is it much to ask ..

  29. #29
    TOK
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    Apr 2013
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    Hello Sarah,

    Re: ".....What do you suggest I do after I get the price breakdown? how would I know if some parts were reasonably priced or not? I have no idea about that..."

    Its not about the price of individual inclusions. Its about seeing WHAT is included by both for the price quoted by each ! They must both be including the same (equivalent) total plant for the prices to be comparable.

    Re" "...I asked for the price breakdown yesterday but as I said before, their customer service is pretty bad. HG haven't even sent me a detailed PDF about the roaster, he said an email with 4 bullets about it? I keep on calling him.

    I dont know if you noticed, but I sent you a PM this morning my time.
    Sarah26 likes this.

  30. #30
    Junior Member
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    Jan 2015
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    Hi all,

    They did get back to me finally after several calls and emails. HG didn't even include any kind of info, all he wrote was "hi sarah the price is $7000 thank you". and now he deducted $500? I'm not happy at all with their service, something is not right.

    And Toper on the other hand refused to provide a price breakdown saying there isn't any and that's the price of the machine.

    I don't know both of them are making me very uncomfortable.

  31. #31
    Gee
    Gee is offline
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    Feb 2015
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    Hello Sarah,

    I've read through the thread, and I understand your confusion, been there too. What country in the Middle East are you in? Perhaps I could help.

  32. #32
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Apr 2008
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
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    2,096
    Hi Sarah,

    Sounds like tough going! Try not to let the communication difficulties discourage you.

    Is there a reseller/distributor of either machine in your region? Someone who has an established line of communication?

    The problems you are experiencing, although mighty frustrating, don't detract from the actual quality of roast that the machines can deliver.

    Persevere.... !! ( I know; more easily said than done!! ) If Gee ( post#31) has some real time experience with what you are going through it could be a great help.

    There are people in Australia, who have regular contact with both of these companies, and who have established successful import and distributorships

    with both of these manufacturers.... there must be some light at the end of the tunnel!! Hang in there.

  33. #33
    Junior Member
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    Feb 2015
    Location
    Jaipur, India
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    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    HI every body, I am from India and like Sarah I am also looking for a shop roaster and homing on to Turkish roasters due to the price factor. I have also come across a brand called Ozturk, it is in the same range Has Granati. Has anyone got any idea about this one?



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