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Thread: Wood roasting

  1. #1
    TC
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    Wood roasting

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    From today's Melbourne Age...

    .....‘‘We roast by our senses – by smell, sound and sight.’’ ‘‘We don’t roast by profile,’’

    Roasters all fired up
    mugshot
    matt holden

    In the early 1960s, the story goes, a couple of Italian brothers bought a second-hand coalpowered roaster, fired it up in their shed and began roasting coffee, shovelling the finished product into hessian sacks and delivering it to cafes around Melbourne where their fellow Italians gathered over cigarettes, cards and toasty short blacks. The coal-fired roaster is long gone and the company the Berra brothers founded, Coffee Mio, is now one of Australia’s big old-school Italian roasters, with a shop and factory in High Street, Thornbury, and a massive gasfired roaster that is fed by hoppers, not hand.

    But the home-roasting tradition of Melbourne’s early Italian migrants has been revived just down the road in Westgarth by Adriano Pilati, Marcello D’Intini and Phill Haddad, trading as the Ricci Method. In a glass-walled room at the back of Melograno, an artisan gelateria and cafe, the trio have hooked up a wood combustion stove to a 15-kilogram Ghibli roaster and are doing wood-fired coffee the old way. Many roasters now track their roast with heat probes and laptops that run profiling software. But, says Pilati, ‘‘We roast by our senses – by smell, sound and sight.’’ ‘‘We don’t roast by profile,’’ adds Haddad. ‘‘We watch and we listen.’’ Marcello D’Intini says they grew up with their nonnas roasting coffee beans on the stove at home. ‘‘You can see how slow the process is,’’ he says. ‘‘You refine it by listening, looking, smelling.’’ They started experimenting three years ago, working in a shed on a farm at Warranwood. At first the coffee tasted ‘‘terrible’’, says Pilati. ‘‘The learning curve was long,’’ adds D’Intini. Now they’ve got it figured.

    The wood-fired roast cycle is longer than gas – around 20 minutes – because it takes longer to adjust the temperature in the drum. ‘‘It’s a bit like steering a big ship,’’ Pilati says. ‘‘It’s a slower, gentler roast.’’ Pilati says they use a variety of timber including sugar gum and yellow box. ‘‘That’s our IP,’’ he jokes. ‘‘But we are conscious of sustainability.’’ They sell two blends (from $15 for 250 grams): Buon Giorno is darker and richer, with more caffeine for a morning wake-up call; while Buona Sera is smoother and sweeter, for the afternoon. And while you shouldn’t expect their coffee to taste of a campfire, the wood-fired method does infuse a subtle, old-school smokiness that’s spot-on in an espresso or a stovetop.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member brettreaby's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Talk_Coffee;550937]From today's Melbourne Age...

    .....‘‘We roast by our senses – by smell, sound and sight.’’ ‘‘We don’t roast by profile,’’

    i do hope they do a better job than the wood fired roated coffee i tried at Castlemaine last year.... it had smokiness for sure..and some other flavours.

    I think i will stick to the behmor for now

  3. #3
    TC
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    I recall a talented and well-known roaster around these parts suggesting that roasting without some sort of datalogging and profiling was akin to roasting blindfolded with one hand tied behind his back.

    I concur.

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    It does sound very romantic and rustic but have any snobs tried their coffee?

  5. #5
    TOK
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    Yup, marketing in its purest form, selling the sizzle not the sausage.
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    Senior Member GrahamK's Avatar
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    Can't understand why it has to be one way OR the other rather than profile roasting with monitoring gear, in conjunction with sensory, which I imagine quite frankly is how most small-medium roasters work anyway.

    Large volume (bulk) roasting no doubt is a totally different ball game in terms of both technique and target consumer, but I can't see how relying totally on sensory for a proper consumer base (i.e. not just for yourself & family), is anything but a marketing ploy. What if you happen to have the flu and your senses are shot to hell at the time.

    Just my 4c worth.

    GrahamK
    Last edited by GrahamK; 3rd February 2015 at 03:22 PM. Reason: grammar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zingzing View Post
    It does sound very romantic and rustic but have any snobs tried their coffee?
    This. You can buy software and various other gadgetry to tell you what you don't instinctively know. That doesn't necessarily make you a great coffee roaster. Roasting by your senses is intuitive, likely acquired through years of experience, as you cannot purchase intuition. Passing judgement on that without so much as sampling the result is, I suppose, the essence of snobbery.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLittleCup View Post
    ....Roasting by your senses is intuitive, likely acquired through years of experience, as you cannot purchase intuition
    Yes- agreed on that.

    Conversely, roasting without some sort of datalogging is counter intuitive. Sensory and data go hand in hand. I know for one that using both makes me a better, far more consistent roaster than if I was to rely solely on intuition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Yes- agreed on that.

    Conversely, roasting without some sort of datalogging is counter intuitive. Sensory and data go hand in hand. I know for one that using both makes me a better, far more consistent roaster than if I was to rely solely on intuition.
    Yeah, for you. Perhaps you lack his intuitive sense. But, going back to my primary point…have you tried the sensory-only roast the gentleman produces, or are you dismissing it out of hand simply because he doesn't subscribe to your philosophy/technique? I guess what strikes me is that everyone is poo-pooing the technique, while no one of the critics has actually sampled the result in the cup.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOK View Post
    Yup, marketing in its purest form, selling the sizzle not the sausage.
    Yup!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLittleCup View Post
    Yeah, for you. Perhaps you lack his intuitive sense.
    Rather inflammatory don't you think? That would be akin to me suggesting that you in fact lack sensory skills and couldn't tell the difference anyway. Given I don't know you, I wouldn't suggest that.

    I'll be buying some out of curiosity. At $60/kg when purchased in 250g bags, I'm hoping to get my socks blown off.
    Last edited by TC; 4th February 2015 at 07:28 AM. Reason: tpyo

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    Not intended to be inflammatory at all, but I'm pretty sure you probably do lack his intuitive sense for his process. Unless, of course, you've also been perfecting it for years? Don't be so sensitive. Some of the comments in the article hint at that intuition. For instance, he compares the progression of the roast to "steering a big ship,' adding that "it's a slower, gentler roast." This makes a lot of sense if you think about it with a modicum of objectivity. If you're planning on turning a big ship you had better be starting your turn well before you're actually expecting the ship to respond. In roasting terms, this is analogous to stoking the fire well in advance of the moment you want your roast to intensify. This is art form, not to be confused with plugging into a USB port and booting up the ol' Dell in order to discern that precise moment. All I'm saying is that I can appreciate the beauty and artistry in that sort of nuanced intuition, which has been evolving since way before the advent of silicon, and, frankly, I'm surprised that you apparently don't. If I were you, I wouldn't waste the money on your curiosity, 'cause the outcome is likely already a foregone conclusion. On the other hand, if you like it, send me some, and we'll see if we can agree.

  12. #12
    Senior Member GrahamK's Avatar
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    There we go again, if you use technology then somehow your senses are no good, no matter what your experience might be.

    Maybe if technology was used alongside intuition and senses it may not have taken that long.

    GrahamK

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLittleCup View Post
    Not intended to be inflammatory at all, but I'm pretty sure you probably do lack his intuitive sense for his process.
    Ok- just go pure 100% unadulterated insulting then. I suspect you chose the wrong coffee forum. Nevertheless, welcome to CoffeeSnobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLittleCup View Post
    On the other hand, if you like it, send me some.
    In your dreams buddy....
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  14. #14
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLittleCup View Post
    Not intended to be inflammatory at all, but I'm pretty sure you probably do lack his intuitive sense for his process. Unless, of course, you've also been perfecting it for years?
    Welcome to Coffee Snobs.
    Not intended to be inflammatory at all, but I'm pretty sure you probably have been coming across as disrespectful.

    We welcome all here, and if you read again what you've written you might understand my first impressions of you could be taken in a negative way.
    However, I'll assume for now your enthusiasm is not translating well into the written word.

    I see your point of view but also that of Talk Coffee.
    I'd advise you to do some research before making your own assumptions about a Site Sponsor and senior member of this forum.
    Talk Coffee is very knowledgeable about coffee and tries to present a balanced argument.
    He made no comment one way or another in his original post but merely started the discussion by posting an article not everyone has access to.
    He agreed with your comment in post #7 but you seem only to have been insulting or antagonistic to him so far.

    How about you take a deep breath and try to let us get to know you and your writing style better so that we can talk about the pros and cons the article raises without getting personal.

    Too bad this thread wasn't started earlier, as I was only in Melbourne over the weekend and could have popped out to Westgarth to grab a bag.
    Last edited by Thundergod; 4th February 2015 at 02:43 PM.
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  15. #15
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Welcome TLC

    Please all - let’s not let this thread head south - so disappointing when it all gets aggressive

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod View Post
    Talk Coffee is very knowledgeable about coffee and tries to present a balanced argument.
    And roasts his own great coffee - so I don’t for a minute doubt his coffee ‘intuition’ - technology used or not

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamK View Post
    …if you use technology then somehow your senses are no good, no matter what your experience might be.
    Second this - technology is only a tool, and is not there to replace the senses (as many successful roasters will concur). I reckon that if these wood-fired beans are as great as promoted (and I'm looking forward to Chris' feedback when he picks up a bag!) then adding a data logger to the equation would simply record what must be his consistently excellent technique - which is the only reason that profiles and data logging are there in the first place - to make these consistently good results easier to achieve! It wouldn’t add to or detract from his abilities at all.

    And if Coffee Mio can achieve ongoing, repeatable, high quality results fro a wood powered roaster for their client base without any technology and simply ‘shift by feel’ - I’d love to know their secret! More power them

    Cheers Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Ok- just go pure 100% unadulterated insulting then. I suspect you chose the wrong coffee forum. Nevertheless, welcome to CoffeeSnobs.



    In your dreams buddy....
    Wow! Quite the prima donna! Buddy.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLittleCup View Post
    Wow! Quite the prima donna! Buddy.
    Six posts under your belt and you see fit to challenge one of our most helpful and respected members, perhaps your in the wrong place, think about it.

    You've lost me pal.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member GrahamK's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that during their "journey", (a term I loath since the proliferation of reality TV), to develop their sensory intuitiveness they made notes and kept logs of roast developments. These are of course ultimately called "profiles", and while logged manually, not a lot different to an automated monitor in terms of outcomes and usefulness. Many roasters, I imagine, started their learning curve using manual logging which ultimately become their progressive benchmarks to consistency and a means of learning from their mistakes and successes. The good ones become the benchmarks and therefore profiles. I (maybe sadly) still have all mine from the day I started roasting.

    However profiles then have to be constantly adjusted due to the environment, bean changes et al. To do so, sensory techniques, intuitiveness and experience play a major part in my case. Some of those can be assisted with the use of more expensive equipment such as moisture content measurements and such like that I cannot afford.

    Personally I still rate some of my sensory talents as low to average, so I do have to say "Good On Them" for being able to develop theirs to the point that they can rely on them for consistency.

    GrahamK
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  19. #19
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Technology versus the sensory approach, I've a feeling most of us rely on a combined approach.

    During roasting I use a DMM to monitor temp combined with a watch and variable heat source, these combined allow a lot of control, however if things look to be moving a little slowly/quickly, I will adjust the temp accordingly, Chris quotes Pilati as saying in his OP ‘‘It’s a bit like steering a big ship,’’ and like a big ship there is certainly substantial lag between action and reaction, in other words if a roast is over done don't expect dropping the heat temp by 50°C to have an immediate affect, it won't, you need to be able to pick up the fact that things are moving too fast well before the damage is done, experience will provide most of us with the necessary skills.

  20. #20
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    Well said DBC.

    Art versus Science? Sensory perception is totally subjective and is affected by the most mundane variables.
    Even a person's mood has an effect of their sensory perception.
    Standardisation is a process that aids the smoothing out of the discrepencies caused by differences in the perception of the senses by indivduals and in maintaining consistency. Technology aids standardisation.
    I would not like the people at the water treatment plant to solely rely on "Artisan", sight smell and taste, techniques in the treatment of my supplied my drinking water and likewise I would be a fool to think I could drive on the freeway by using my senses only to predict the speed I am doing, although I have been driving a very long time... I still need a speedometer.
    Granted that using "Artisan" techniques to roast coffee is very low risk and probably low fail rate - but how would anybody know when there are no records to review?
    I fail to see how using technology to remove the imperfections of our sensory systems could do anything but improve consistency - greatly.


    Apologies in advance if I have offended any "Artisan" drivers ;-)

  21. #21
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    On the other hand, I would like a dollar for every roast that has been under/over done because the roaster blindly followed the numbers, failing to use sight and smell as an indicator that something is not quite right.

    Never mind the fact that the area is full of smoke and flames are licking out of the machine, the profile called for x number of minutes and we are still 4 mins short, so, let her run.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Wood roasted coffee.
    Plenty of other roasters in Italy, USA etc that use similar roasters.
    A marketing dream, conjures up all sorts of romantic notions, just like wood oven bread.
    Is it better or worse than other methods?
    Who cares, as long as the coffee is good, it is just another product with a point of difference. Why get your knickers in a knot? Why have a peeing contest?
    Accept it for what it is, and embrace it.
    Should they milk it for all they can? Hell yes!
    Other media whores go running for attention every time they pass a bowel movement.

  23. #23
    mds
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
    Wood roasted coffee.
    Plenty of other roasters in Italy, USA etc that use similar roasters.
    A marketing dream, conjures up all sorts of romantic notions, just like wood oven bread.
    Is it better or worse than other methods?
    Who cares, as long as the coffee is good, it is just another product with a point of difference. Why get your knickers in a knot? Why have a peeing contest?
    Accept it for what it is, and embrace it.
    Should they milk it for all they can? Hell yes!
    Other media whores go running for attention every time they pass a bowel movement.
    I agree with Bosco_Lever all good chefs and bar staff use their senses as well as technology. I personally don"t care what they do as long as it tastes good. Ho many cafes use the best beans and machines but still produce absolute crap coffee.

    I this forum has become one big peeing contest dominated by a handful of bullies - you know who you are - who if they don't agree with you are quickly to put you down. And we talk about free speech?

    Most disappointing.

    Mel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Six posts under your belt and you see fit to challenge one of our most helpful and respected members, perhaps your in the wrong place, think about it.

    You've lost me pal.
    With all due respect, no one owes anyone any reverence based on the number of posts they do or don't have. In fact, suggesting that I do is a little condescending, so don't do it. The elevated sense of self-worth this little clique ascribes to itself always manifests itself in your treatment of newbies. I find it both amusing and annoying. Grow up, and treat new participants with a little respect. It is, at least, encouraging to see some objective debate in some of these subsequent posts.
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    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    I find it interesting how many people start posts with the phrase "With all due respect" and then proceed to show none at all.
    Usually whilst chastising others for not showing enough respect.

    As for the topic, at $60 per kilo, I'll let others try out the product and stick with my usual supply chains.
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  26. #26
    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post

    I'll be buying some out of curiosity. At $60/kg when purchased in 250g bags, I'm hoping to get my socks blown off.
    Hi Chris,
    I would be interested in your findings, especially if you run it through one of the levers you have. Not interested in a side by side, with any other coffee.
    I was gifted some wood roasted coffee a few years ago, roasted in the USA and it was two weeks old when I got it (carry on luggage). I really enjoyed it, but did not have my lever at the time. Forgot the name of the roaster, but they serve it via a lever in one of their establishments.
    Anyway, looking forward to a non biased review.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLittleCup View Post
    Wow! Quite the prima donna! Buddy.
    Once again welcome to CoffeeSnobs. I feel you have introduced yourself well to our resident members and they now have a good idea of what you're like. Enjoy your time here.

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    Umm I take it most people contributing here roast for personal (or commerical) use, but $15 for 250 g really isn't that outrageous, check out Campos' prices. I appreciate that great quality coffee can be sourced for much cheaper (i.e. beanbay) but years ago when I bought from various cafe roasters $45/kg was the going rate.

    p.s. kudos to the wood roasters for atleast giving it a go, consider the article is written for the average bloke. After spending three years to work out the profile I'm sure its consistent enough not to require a thermometer.

  29. #29
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
    Hi Chris,
    I would be interested in your findings, especially if you run it through one of the levers you have. Not interested in a side by side, with any other coffee.
    I was gifted some wood roasted coffee a few years ago, roasted in the USA and it was two weeks old when I got it (carry on luggage). I really enjoyed it, but did not have my lever at the time. Forgot the name of the roaster, but they serve it via a lever in one of their establishments.
    Anyway, looking forward to a non biased review.
    Will do Bosco. I really hope it's good as the more great places to do coffee, the better.

    Back to topic:

    What I do know is that no amount of practise on known profiles would allow me to replicate them perfectly without logging them. A shade or two lighter or darker makes a difference. 30 sec either way makes a difference. 5 deg either way makes a difference. 5 deg cooler or warmer ambient temp at drop makes a difference. 5 deg higher or lower at turn makes a difference. 500g more or less mass at drop makes a difference. I could keep going....

    In my opinion, anyone who believes s/he has all of this nailed without profiling roasts must clearly know everything. When you know everything, it's time to get out as your mind closed to learning a long time ago. I'm happy to keep learning with technology, my senses and by logged and documented experimentation.
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  30. #30
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLittleCup View Post
    With all due respect, no one owes anyone any reverence based on the number of posts they do or don't have. In fact, suggesting that I do is a little condescending, so don't do it. The elevated sense of self-worth this little clique ascribes to itself always manifests itself in your treatment of newbies. I find it both amusing and annoying. Grow up, and treat new participants with a little respect. It is, at least, encouraging to see some objective debate in some of these subsequent posts.
    I suggest you read posts #7 (your first in this thread), #8 and #9 again and have a think about who made this 'personal'. There's absolutely no angst in TC's reply (#8) to your post (#7) and in fact he begins by concurring with your first point. You then respond with what many would perceive as a personal affront, "Yeah, for you. Perhaps you lack his intuitive sense." (#9).

    I'm sorry, but this really comes across as trolling (even if not intended as such).
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  31. #31
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    I suggest you read posts #7 (your first in this thread), #8 and #9 again and have a think about who made this 'personal'. There's absolutely no angst in TC's reply (#8) to your post (#7) and in fact he begins by concurring with your first point. You then respond with what many would perceive as a personal affront, "Yeah, for you. Perhaps you lack his intuitive sense." (#9).

    I'm sorry, but this really comes across as trolling (even if not intended as such).
    I suggested something similar (was deleted) TLC certainly comes across as an angry person.

  32. #32
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Willem Boot writes aout this very principle in one of his much read articles, here: https://bootcoffee.com/wp-content/up...int_July05.pdf



    [QUOTE=mds;551007I this forum has become one big peeing contest dominated by a handful of bullies - you know who you are - who if they don't agree with you are quickly to put you down. And we talk about free speech?

    Most disappointing.

    Mel[/QUOTE]

    It's a shame that the posting of an article has been hijacked by a troll and their sycophant and turned into a thread of something else.

    Bullies!! What bullies? Peeing contest?? Any examples?? Nah..... didn't think so.

    You know you're 'free' to name names and give examples.

    Just some dribble from behind the computer of another brave, courageous cyber warrior. ;-)

    Bullies and trolls aren't tolerated on this site and are banned pronto......

    Know anyone who's been banned lately?? :-D
    Last edited by chokkidog; 4th February 2015 at 09:38 PM.
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  33. #33
    TC
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    To update this thread, I shelled out 30 of my hard earned for 2 x 250g today. One of each blend. Roast dates were 27 Feb and 13 Mar respectively. These were selected from the rear of the dozen or so bags on display. The front ones were older again with roast dates back to January. No single origin at all.

    The roastery looks terrific. The bags of greens on display were from one of our larger Melbourne brokers. I couldn't see too much....

    The older one: "Good Morning"... Nothing from the bag valve. Not too dark/no visible oil on opening but the bag smelled rancid. We experimented with pours.

    On duty was the Leva. We had a panel of 5 tasters and although I was really hoping to say that I had consumed a massive slice of humble pie; all I can offer is that I suspect "the big ship" may have ran aground. Good crema. The shots varied from acrid to astringent and just plain yuck to my palate (and the rest of the panel as well). Not nice at all and yes, the smoke was there. Perhaps a good serve of milk and sugar would have helped, but I am not so sure.

    I'm happy to hold off on a final opinion until we try the other but at this point, it reinforces the value in profiling roasts.

    I'll open the other bag on Saturday and see what it offers when consumed with less age.

    One wonders whether these newspaper articles are really just advertorials?
    Last edited by TC; 17th March 2015 at 05:36 PM. Reason: tpyo

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    Settle down everyone, there is a wood roaster in Lilyfield Sydney that has been there for some time, so wood roasting is no new thing, nothing to get our knickers in a knot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patro5 View Post
    Settle down everyone, there is a wood roaster in Lilyfield Sydney that has been there for some time, so wood roasting is no new thing, nothing to get our knickers in a knot.
    You may have missed that the point of the discussion in this thread was not about wood roasting per se- rather the value in profiling roasts v hoping for the best.
    Last edited by TC; 18th March 2015 at 05:59 PM.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    On the other hand, I would like a dollar for every roast that has been under/over done because the roaster blindly followed the numbers, failing to use sight and smell as an indicator that something is not quite right.

    Never mind the fact that the area is full of smoke and flames are licking out of the machine, the profile called for x number of minutes and we are still 4 mins short, so, let her run.
    If your "numbers" are wrong, then you're not really following the profile (you just think you are).

    Of course the Captain of the big ship won't follow his GPS or compass if it's leading him straight at the shore or to the wrong port (unless he's an idiot, or perhaps sailing a Greek cruise ship). However, I don't imagine there would be many out there who steer their big ship blindfolded, guided by the feel of the wind and the screams of the sailors...

  37. #37
    TOK
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    You may have missed that the point of the discussion in this thread was not about wood roasting per se- rather the value in profiling roasts v hoping for the best.
    Well said C, and thanks for the update, although after the shoddy treatment you received above, you've been unbelievably fair in taking the time (a cost) to visit their roasterie and give them some of your hard earned. I dont know that I would have bothered.

    Looking forward to your next cupping.
    Last edited by TOK; 19th March 2015 at 08:19 AM.
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  38. #38
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    As promised, chapter 2.

    We opened the second pack this morning: "good night". No gas once again but the bag wasn't rancid. Some promise...

    #1 shot? Bang on. No wastage of my $30 to dial in. Lower body (as the blend promised) but sadly many of the same cup characteristics of the other one with the nasty finish. I didn't finish my shot. Tried it under milk and came to the decision that I wouldn't order a second if presented this coffee. 3 us had tried the other batch and all of us agreed that this was better than the other blend. If we use the term "clean" to refer to some coffees, I can only offer the opposite- dirty.

    Time to play with some minds. I have some regular Saturday morning milky coffee people and chose two- both of whom have very good palates. One adds a little sugar to his coffee as well. We had P2 on today and I made a second using the wood-fired for each client without telling them what it was and asked for feedback. Neither was prepared to finish the unknown coffee. They were surprised when told it was a $60/kg blend.

    Conclusions? I have enough info now to reinforce that there is huge value in profiling and whilst there are no doubt people who prefer one method to the other, I'm more than happy to keep on the pathway I am on.

    My nonna taught me a few things too. She was old enough and wise enough to know that times change and whilst reminiscing and nostalgia have their place, she taught me that there is value in embracing progress.

    I have no doubt that it's possible to create great wood fire coffee. Perhaps one day, I'll get to sample one.
    Last edited by TC; 21st March 2015 at 03:19 PM.

  39. #39
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    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Great review Chris



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