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  1. #1
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    Freddo

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    ## Moved the below noise from a useful thread - 22 Jan 2017 ## - Andy


    Doesn't preheating remove the ambient temp variable hence making the process more repeatable, assuming you do it to the same temp which is easy with a heatsnob?

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Without getting into long discussions about thermal mass and stored residual heat... not all warm-up routines will be the same, even when made easier with a HeatSnob.

    Ambient temperature has an effect all through the roast as coffee roasters draw cold air that needs to be heated. If you don't have a baseline for how to deal with the a low ambient temperature for the full roast cycle then pre-heating only changes the first minutes of a roast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Without getting into long discussions about thermal mass and stored residual heat... not all warm-up routines will be the same, even when made easier with a HeatSnob.

    Ambient temperature has an effect all through the roast as coffee roasters draw cold air that needs to be heated. If you don't have a baseline for how to deal with the a low ambient temperature for the full roast cycle then pre-heating only changes the first minutes of a roast.
    Ok this shows my lack of knowledge about how Behmor functions but if you never ask.....

    Why does the Behmor draw cold air into the roasting chamber? Doesn't it just heat the air inside it? To drop temp I assumed it just cycles the heating elements on and off (PWM) though I guess drawing cold air in will make it drop faster.

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Ok this shows my lack of knowledge about how Behmor functions but if you never ask.....

    Why does the Behmor draw cold air into the roasting chamber? Doesn't it just heat the air inside it? To drop temp I assumed it just cycles the heating elements on and off (PWM) though I guess drawing cold air in will make it drop faster.
    Instead of continuing to answer your questions I'll ask some instead...

    1: What comes out the exhaust on the back?
    2: Where does it come from?
    3: Is the door hard to open at the end of a roast due to a 16 minute vacuum?
    4: Could the temperature of air in the room make a difference?
    5: If so, what difference?

    All good roasters use heat, airflow and agitation to provide an even roast. The Behmor in principal is not much different to my commercial drum roaster which is also why the taste of the beans out of the Behmor are very close to a commercial roast and usually better than all the other domestic roaster appliances.

    This is why it continues to be the home roaster with the most amount of competition wins, it's nearly unfair on the other roasters which cost 2,3 or 4 times as much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Instead of continuing to answer your questions I'll ask some instead...

    1: What comes out the exhaust on the back?
    2: Where does it come from?
    3: Is the door hard to open at the end of a roast due to a 16 minute vacuum?
    4: Could the temperature of air in the room make a difference?
    5: If so, what difference?
    Hi Andy,

    I'm not trying to be smart, just trying to understand the roaster better. [EDIT: ....as I'm not sure the Behmor does draw cold air in....]

    1/2. I measure exhaust temp (which isn't at all useful actually) but it does shows the exhaust fan only kicks in around 4-5 min (see temp spike in black line in profile). From this I concluded it was a closed system. So I think not much comes out of the exhaust at all. The gradual increase in exhaust temp graph is just the unit itself getting hotter.

    3. I've never noticed opening the door requiring more force at the end but will check it out next time.

    4. If it's a closed system, then room temp will only have a significant difference in the first few minutes. However if it is continually drawing in external air then yes it will make a difference throughout the entire roast. Though if this was the case, I'd expect the exhaust temp (black line) to be the same as the roasting chamber air temp (pink line) as that is where the air is coming from. They are obviously miles apart.

    5. The difference would be if Behmor wanted to maintain the same roast times as a closed system, they would need a more powerful heater. That would increase production costs and who wants that.

    So I hope you can see why I'm confused. [Edit: ie. My data tells me it's not drawing in external air but you're say it does so just trying to understand if it actually does and if so why?]

    069-2016-12-23-Mex-Decf-FCe+0.01-24%-250g.jpg
    Last edited by MrFreddofrog; 20th January 2017 at 01:45 AM. Reason: Clarification

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Hi Andy,

    I'm not trying to be smart, just trying to understand the roaster better. [EDIT: ....as I'm not sure the Behmor does draw cold air in....]

    1/2. I measure exhaust temp (which isn't at all useful actually) but it does shows the exhaust fan only kicks in around 4-5 min (see temp spike in black line in profile). From this I concluded it was a closed system. So I think not much comes out of the exhaust at all. The gradual increase in exhaust temp graph is just the unit itself getting hotter.

    3. I've never noticed opening the door requiring more force at the end but will check it out next time.

    4. If it's a closed system, then room temp will only have a significant difference in the first few minutes. However if it is continually drawing in external air then yes it will make a difference throughout the entire roast. Though if this was the case, I'd expect the exhaust temp (black line) to be the same as the roasting chamber air temp (pink line) as that is where the air is coming from. They are obviously miles apart.

    5. The difference would be if Behmor wanted to maintain the same roast times as a closed system, they would need a more powerful heater. That would increase production costs and who wants that.

    So I hope you can see why I'm confused. [Edit: ie. My data tells me it's not drawing in external air but you're say it does so just trying to understand if it actually does and if so why?]

    069-2016-12-23-Mex-Decf-FCe+0.01-24%-250g.jpg
    Erm, if the exhaust is blowing air out it has to come from somewhere doesn't it? I think you answered your own question when you said there's no vacuum created.

    Leroy'stillscratchingmyhead'C

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Hi Andy,

    I'm not trying to be smart, just trying to understand the roaster better. [EDIT: ....as I'm not sure the Behmor does draw cold air in....]

    1/2. I measure exhaust temp (which isn't at all useful actually) but it does shows the exhaust fan only kicks in around 4-5 min (see temp spike in black line in profile). From this I concluded it was a closed system. So I think not much comes out of the exhaust at all. The gradual increase in exhaust temp graph is just the unit itself getting hotter.
    There's a cold air intake directly below the exhaust. Just because the exhaust fan is inactive until (approx) the time the afterburners kick in doesn't mean that no exhaust is created. It's just not being blasted out by a fan.

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    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    On a cool evening in (relatively warm) garage, while roasting I opened the garage door and noticed a drop in bean temp when the cooler air filled the garage. Proof that ambient temp does affect the roast.

    It is a very easy to use roaster that gives great results.

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    if the exhaust is blowing air out ...LeroyC
    Is it? How do you know there is exhaust air being continually being blown out and not just at 4-5mins.

    Yes I think I have answered my own question (it's for the most part a closed system) but I'm not sure I am correct as Andy says the opposite.

    btw, I never said there is or isn't a vacuum created.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    ..Just because the exhaust fan is inactive .... doesn't mean that no exhaust is created. It's just not being blasted out by a fan.
    Without the exhaust fan on, how else are exhaust gases to exist the system and similarly, how is cool air sucked into the system.

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Is it? How do you know there is exhaust air being continually being blown out and not just at 4-5mins.

    Yes I think I have answered my own question (it's for the most part a closed system) but I'm not sure I am correct as Andy says the opposite.

    btw, I never said there is or isn't a vacuum created.



    Without the exhaust fan on, how else are exhaust gases to exist the system and similarly, how is cool air sucked into the system.
    Jeepers creepers, you've got yourself in a real pickle over this very simple question. Here's a tip: in the first few minutes of the roast pop your nose close to the exhaust/catalytic converter and smell the aromas coming from the machine. If smells are coming from the machine then so is air and other gases. It's pretty basic stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Without the exhaust fan on, how else are exhaust gases to exist the system and similarly, how is cool air sucked into the system.
    MrFreddo, I think the confusion here is that you may be looking at the Behmor as an isolated system. It exists and the system is shielded from all external stimuli/conditions.

    The Behmor unfortunately is not such a beast. Yes, it is a semi closed system, with the internals/roasting drum being separated from the outside by he roaster walls/sides. However, it is not a completely sealed system. Air is still able to flow in an out through the cracks and joins and other openings. As such, when a temperature gradient is created by having a hotter inside than outside, convection occurs (heat transfer by the movement of in this case gases/or air) and thus there is air flow from from the hotter internal roaster to the cooler ambient air temperature. Please note, this is not air flow due to the exhaust fan, merely air flow created by convection. By default, as hot air flows out of the roaster, as the roaster is not air tight, cooler ambient air has to flow into the roaster through the various openings/incomplete seals etc to replace the air flowing out. If air did not flow back into the roaster to replace that lost due to convection, a vacuum would be created, making it harder to open the roaster once heated. An you confirmed that there isn't a vacuum created because in one of your first comments you noted that you did not feel any resistance when opening the roaster whether it was heated or not.

    As LeroyC has commented, you know that there is air flow out because you are able to smell the aromas of the roasting coffee. If the roaster was totally sealed and air could not flow in and out as dictated above, no aromas would arise as the hot roast air is trapped within the roaster.

    Hope that makes sense. Trying to work this one out myself

  12. #12
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Freddo,
    The only reason you are confused is that you continually make this way more complicated than it needs to be and have missed the basics of what you are doing. I suspect you have read way too much guff from other sites and are trying to absorb too much data, our previous discussions about computer controlling fell on deaf ears but eventually you will see it's not the holy grail either. You are monitoring exhaust temperature not air flow so your graph data doesn't answer the question.

    The Behmor roaster does an excellent job out of the box, it doesn't need the complex graphing that you are doing to roast beautiful coffee and all you really need is a pad an pen to record each roast so you can recreate that same roast again.

    My answers to the 5 questions are:

    1: What comes out the exhaust on the back?

    Hot air, there is always something coming out and later in the roast (near 1st crack) and during cooling the air flow is much higher.


    2: Where does it come from?

    Drawn in from the bottom back of the roaster and enters the chamber through the flap-door under the drum.

    3: Is the door hard to open at the end of a roast due to a 16 minute vacuum?

    No, there is no vacuum created as it has air flow through the drum.


    4: Could the temperature of air in the room make a difference?

    Yes.


    5: If so, what difference?

    Cold air in needs to be heated, if you apply the same amount of heat for the same amount of time then a roast on a cold day will be lighter than a roast on a hot day.



    It is a very easy to use roaster that gives great results.
    I agree Artman, many thousands of Aussies are roasting excellent coffee on the Behmor without any graphing or data acquisition. Over complicating the process just isn't necessary.

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    Ok, that's starting to make sense. True, I am graphing heat temp and not air flow and the two are not necessarily correlated. I'll stick some tell tales over the exhaust and possibly the inlet to observe the air movement just to prove it to myself.

    You're right, it is excellent out of the box. However I learn a lot faster by tinkering, measuring, reading etc. I learn sweet FA if I just let it do it's thing.

    Digitally controlling the Behmor in 1% increments was a big step in producing more consistent manually controlled roasts. 25% increments is just too hard.

    Computer controlling was just icing on the cake. Essentially it's brought me back to square one, just loading the beans and letting everything happen. No different to using the Behmor's auto programmes. The big difference is I know exactly what profile the machine is aiming for and I can easily tweak it so suit any bean.

    As always, thanks for the clarification.

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Wow, really? Tell tales?
    Dude, it's okay to be wrong, although after 400+ posts like the above ones I guess it's looking pretty unlikely.

    * Digitally controlling at 1% produces a more consistent graph, not necessarily more consistent coffee.
    * PWM at 1% won't work as the elements don't behave as intended at a high oscillation frequencies and you will also drastically shorten the life of the elements relay.
    * To prove the above point (before you argue) check the temperature of the element at 1% then again at 10% and see if it's 10 times the heat.
    * Icing on poo still tastes like poo but with icing on it (well, I assume it does anyway)

    I learn a lot faster by tinkering, measuring, reading etc.
    I get that tinkering can expand your knowledge and plenty of us have fun doing that but you can also learn a LOT using your senses and I suggest it's really the best place to start.

    Air flow and fan speeds during the roast are an important part of process, the internal balances of conduction, convection, and radiation to heat the beans all play a part in the end result and if you tweak one aspect without regard for the rest then you might be a long way from optimal results.

    Excellent coffee roasting is a balance of science and art, turn your computer control off and smell the roses (and the exhaust eh LeroyC), you might accidentally learn more about the process than you realise.

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    No need to do tell tales. Behmor tech support informed me external air is not being continually drawn in.

    I think 1% increments do help immensely though I'm not PWM at 1%. 1% simply permits fine tuning the duty cycle. My typical heating profile is 100%, then 90, 80, 70, 60, 0, drop.

    "Poo", really? Why are you so against computer controlled roasting? That's exactly what the Behmor auto programs are and apparently kids win roasting comps using them so computer controlled roasting certainly has it's place.

    Not everyone learns the same way. Some prefer using their senses, some prefer facts and figures. I lean towards the later with lots of experimenting along the way. You obviously prefer the former but in reality neither is better or worse, just different.

    While air flow and fan speeds etc are important, they can't be controlled with the Behmor.

    Turning the computer off is akin to telling people not to use the Behmor auto programs. Go tell Behmor their computer controlled roasting programs aren't needed and see what response you get.

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    ...yet still never wrong...
    **sigh**

    I have never been against computer control and built the world's first computer controlled Behmor which helped me understand the difference between roasting with science and understanding the sensory aspects. While you only control heat, mine did control all the fans, heat, afterburner and even the light which is why I said "tweak one aspect without regard for the rest then you might be a long way from optimal results". I have attempted to share some of those findings with others but some people just can't seem to hear for their own regurgitated noise.

    As I told you previously and have posted in many other threads, the kids used a manual override at 1st crack. Using a built-in Behmor program up to first crack is more like "known manual" as opposed to computer controlled as the roaster takes very little feedback and blindly does what it does for that given program. When they heard the first crack (a known and consistent internal bean temperature) they lowered the heat to 25% and hit cool prior to second crack. Simple, repeatable and most importantly it tastes great.


    You regularly misquote and rarely let the actual facts get in the way of a story. It was much nicer during your recent hiatus and we had far fewer posts littered with misinformation.

    Enjoy your magic exhaust roaster and I hope the coffee from it is great.
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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    ...yet still never wrong...
    **sigh**

    I have never been against computer control and built the world's first computer controlled Behmor which helped me understand the difference between roasting with science and understanding the sensory aspects. While you only control heat, mine did control all the fans, heat, afterburner and even the light which is why I said "tweak one aspect without regard for the rest then you might be a long way from optimal results". I have attempted to share some of those findings with others but some people just can't seem to hear for their own regurgitated noise.

    As I told you previously and have posted in many other threads, the kids used a manual override at 1st crack. Using a built-in Behmor program up to first crack is more like "known manual" as opposed to computer controlled as the roaster takes very little feedback and blindly does what it does for that given program. When they heard the first crack (a known and consistent internal bean temperature) they lowered the heat to 25% and hit cool prior to second crack. Simple, repeatable and most importantly it tastes great.


    You regularly misquote and rarely let the actual facts get in the way of a story. It was much nicer during your recent hiatus and we had far fewer posts littered with misinformation.

    Enjoy your magic exhaust roaster and I hope the coffee from it is great.
    Andy I'm really not sure how you think helping to design the Behmor puts you in a position to comment on how it works and make recommendations on how to operate it.

    ......wait a minute......

    .......hmmmm......

    Whatever the case I value FF's contributions and I can't wait for him to buy a DE1+ then modify it extensively and tell John and Scott Rao that they're wrong about how it operates.
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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Sorry in advance to John and Scott.

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    Maybe that why we disagree so much. You think you are presenting the "facts" but I see it as anecdotal evidence. As such I continue to press to get "hard facts" which you perceive as me being arrogant and not listening to you. (Then I finally give up and just ask Tech Support.)

    Mind you it was you who brought up the computer thing. I actively avoid discussing it when you're around as I know how it presses all your buttons. I should have ignored it when you brought it up again, my bad.

    And this is a public forum. You should be encouraging robust discussions. If I don't understand something or disagree, I'll say so. There's already enough "Yes men" here, you don't need more.

    Yes the coffee is good. I am slowly moving towards a commercial roaster so all the things you mentioned about air flow, gas pressure etc I'll have to learn. Oh the joys of roasting

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Maybe that why we disagree so much. You think you are presenting the "facts" but I see it as anecdotal evidence. As such I continue to press to get "hard facts" which you perceive as me being arrogant and not listening to you. (Then I finally give up and just ask Tech Support.)

    Mind you it was you who brought up the computer thing. I actively avoid discussing it when you're around as I know how it presses all your buttons. I should have ignored it when you brought it up again, my bad.

    And this is a public forum. You should be encouraging robust discussions. If I don't understand something or disagree, I'll say so. There's already enough "Yes men" here, you don't need more.

    Yes the coffee is good. I am slowly moving towards a commercial roaster so all the things you mentioned about air flow, gas pressure etc I'll have to learn. Oh the joys of roasting
    Are you for real?

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    This site exists to share, teach, learn and encourage but you came here as an arrogant and argumentative tosser and time has changed nothing. I would be fibbing if I denied that I've hovered over your "delete user" button many, many times. Life is too short to spend it on people with their fingers in their ears saying "la la la".

    Have a lovely life.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post


    I am slowly moving towards a commercial roaster so all the things you mentioned about air flow, gas pressure etc I'll have to learn. Oh the joys of roasting
    Crikey FF, basic physics and life experience covers most of what you need to know.

    "And this is a public forum. You should be encouraging robust discussions." I agree, however pointless banter about misconceptions is of no value whatsoever.
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  23. #23
    Senior Member LFM60's Avatar
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    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Good grief!!! I've got a headache after reading that lot.

    Easy solution.........buy beans from Bean Bay.
    Delivered to the door, just grind and make coffee.
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